Hi Rebel. To quote you: "I don't see how getting smashed fifteen times and bouncing up with a fierce attack every time is a measure of martial proficiency. Why not a hundred or a thousand times then? " The short answer to this one is that in our training we required Uke to do this much when necessary. Yes, that is a measure of their proficiency as Uke. If they can't, then IMHO they shouldn't Uke for a higher grade in jiyuwaza. The number of repetitions etc is explained below. If you do it differently that's OK but I am describing the Shudokan ways. (Wolfie - speed was essential to our style of Aikido - a slow attack would be useless and not worth defending against as you would simply evade it. It is not a young man's style as a Tori, but as a Uke you need to attack with a wirthwhile and powerful blow which demands respect.) It is the job of Uke to give Tori what he needs in order to practice and make progress and help Tori to demonstrate 'proficiency'. As an instructor I would not feel comfortable, or enjoy, falling short of that as a Uke. My decision is personal, as I'm sure there are plenty of instructors out there who can demonstrate techs and yet be unable to Uke for them in a freestyle session. In addition to demonstration and practice of techniques, all our club and grading sessions had freestyle 'jiyuwaza'. Stamina and power were always required from Uke, as well as skill and guile. What I describe as a Uke being required to attack 15 times would be necessary for Tori to demonstrate a good range of techniques without repetition. At a senior level, this may carry on much longer if Tori repeats himself or the Sensei grading him wants to see more - at 1st Dan he would expect to see at least 15 different techniques. Sensei dictates the length of the jiyuwaza, not Tori, much less a knackered Uke. On a club night if numbers were low it was common to Uke several times. Each session of jiyuwaza requires a fast and dynamic series of attacks, sometimes predetermined (15 yokomen strikes with 3rd Kyu grades for example, as one of their syllabus sesions) sometimes random attacks with higher grades. That is the Shudokan style of training, which follows its Yoshinkan roots pretty closely but can be more brutal. I am, of course, referring to senior grade work. Jiyuwaza begins with lower Kyu grades at a slower pace with a single shomentsuki attack and then builds from there. It's interesting that you mention taking the fight to the ground. This is a rarity in Aikido in my experience, as you should not need to end up grappling. However, we all may end up there as the world is imperfect, and I used to make shameless use of my Judo background whenever we attempted groundwork.
Hi guys MUSHIN Many aikidoka place unesessary mystical connotations onto advanced principles such as mushin.It simply means an unconcerened mind with no "tactics" allowing the body to move instinctivly rather than to the dictates of the intelect, Below the position would seam to call for kote gaeshe had my "mind" been trapped by that thought I would have been caught with the gyaku tsuke.Since I had controlled the centreline and the maai the gyaku tsuke was countered by ikkyo by striking it aside with the left hand blade. Basic mushin Regards koyo
kiaiki, you did tell us of the 15 different techniques requirement before. Thanks for clarifying where that number came from. For some reason, I was picturing uke having to do the same ukemi 15 times or more. Having to do different ukemi and attack in different ways I can see as a good sign of martial skill. aikiwolfie, if this interests you, for training purposes I do have a sort of "three times rule." On most techniques even with control, I will not have those techniques applied with power and intensity more than three times to the same person without a break. I don't know where this rule came from but it was passed down to me. Some safer techniques can be done many more times with intensity and some more dangerous techniques maybe less than three times, but three times is the basic rule. There are two reasons for this rule. First, the techniques, even with control and good ukemi still can damage areas, particularly small joints and the muscles around vital areas and pressure points that could be atemi'ed. Second, the risk of the technique causing serious injury increases over repetitions at full speed. For instance, on one technique where I was thrown putting pressure on my neck, I was first unbalanced by the rotating of my arm and shoulder in a similar manner of tori "stirring the pot" (similar to Kaitenage) but as I rotated around, tori braced the side of my head to the side of his hip with his other arm so as to drop me behind him. If tori did not have the control to let go of me, my neck would be broken with the fall. As is the breakfall for this is to take my free arm and use it to brace my head to my shoulders to attempt to keep my neck from breaking. As it was I was really freaked out, I felt that I was close to death. Doing this technique full speed brought instinctive responses and the instinct of tori was to apply the technique as he had been taught, to finish the fight. After doing this three times, we only worked that technique at slower speeds for the rest of the day. This was the first time I came to understood the three times rule which I turned into the saying, "Three times fast then three thousands times slow." The human body can only take so much, repeated exposure to the same technique targetting vital areas at full speeds and intensity should to be limited in training or else we risk our "combat instincts" finishing the job.
Would it not be a tactic to have an unconcerned mind allowing the body to move instinctively? By "no tactics" maybe a better phrase might be "no expectations." Then again, I'm just trying to avoid a contradiction as I consider tactics to be partly the use of procedure so that one is free to act with mushin. Without tactics, the mind has too much to think about and cannot be unconcerned. Am I making any sense?
O Sensei described losing all his techniques, which I take as an expression of just that instincive response we all desire. In jiyuwaza, if the Tori does the same technique twice it boils down to that - if the attack warrants it, then why not the same defence? This is why our gradings lasted a long time - if Uke does not vary the attack, Tori has no need to vary the defence. Rebel: 'I felt that I was close to death' : Our Sensei used to say that at 1st Dan it was the role if Uke to 'bring Tori close to death' in a tanto jiyuwaza. In other words, if the attack is not commited to the point of deadly force, why bother defending. Only an exceptional Uke is able to balance the need for a deadly attack with the need to pull back if Tori is unable to meet it. We have had serious injuries when tanto attacks have been committed beyond the point of no return, but I would rather train at this intensity than pussyfoot around, as we were always training with an eye on the 'street'.
I think the whole idea of being free of tactics is to be free of preconceptions of what is about to happen and what you should do as a counter. For example many martial artists train for self defence using what I call the "ABC Senario" method. If uke throws a right hook you do technique 2 etc.
Hi All, I am a firm believer in training outside your comfort zone. Training should NEVER feel comfortable. That is for Saturday nights watching movies and eating pizza. I am not a particularly fit individual, 14 hours sitting a desk at day sees to that but when I train I try to train to the point I feel almost completely spent my last couple of practices of the night, it is only my will to not give in that pushes me through them. I see this as important in training because it teaches me a very important lesson. "Battles do not happen at your convienence." The phrase coined by Josephus about roman training should be the model for modern high level martial arts "their drills are bloodless battles, their battles bloody drills". No-one ever won battles doing ki sensitivity excercises. The Bear.
Ki to me means attitude, fighting spirit. Since I believe that he with the superior attitude has an advantage , I have no problem when someone says he has a stonger ki. Catch his intention to strike can be interpretated as catch his ki. However all of these principles can only be practised if there is a sense of danger and their application accompanied with pragmatic and effective technique.There should be no mystical connotations. regards koyo kokyu nage timing unbalancing and spirit no mystical connotations
A lot of what is called ki can be explained by simple mechanics. But I have seen and done other things that can't. One ki development exercise I used to do involved having uke stand with their eyes closed. I would then stand about three feet from uke and simply point in their direction and make uke the focus of my attention. Every time without fail uke would either stumble or sway back and forth like one of those weeble wobble men. I can't explain exactly how this exercise works but the aim was to unblance ukes center by disturbing their mind. Personaly I don't think this is evidence of anything "mystical" going on. However when teachers include that sort of thing in a class it's not hard to see why people might get a bit confused. It does tend to blow a few minds when they find themselves at a complete lose to explain why they should stumble or move at all under such calm and controled conditions. I probably should also mention during the exercise when my attention was elsewhere, uke was unaffected and stood perfectly still.
I was told during training with a former Army Ranger that they were trained not to stare at people if they wanted to sneak up on them. Something about people having an uncanny ability to tell if someone is staring at them. Your exercise is similar to test done to determine if people could use a "sixth sense" to tell if someone was staring at them or not. Although I do believe there is something going on that we can't completely understand, it is hard to discount that other senses may be involved in influencing the results. Especially since you stated you got 100% results. The blinded folded person might be subconsciously reacting to changes in temperature or air currents as might be the case if your hand was close enough for them to feel a breeze or temperature change. They might be cued in by sounds in the background such as changes in your breathing patterns or prolonged silence. They might be reacting to smell (lol, don't take that the wrong way). One example of something like this was the horse that could do math. It would stomp/tap its foot the number of times of the answer. So 3+4 would equal 7 taps. What really was happening was that subconsciously the trainer was nodding his head and the horse picked up on this to know how much to tap. As martial artists, I believe we learn to read intentions by a combination of our senses to read signals. If there is a sixth sense involved, then it is weak and other senses need to pick up the slack.
Sorry Aikiwolfie but I've seen these 'Ki development' exercises too often to believe in them. When we all train together we tend to go along with what is expected. I've seen the 'pointy finger' down people and move whole lines of students - BUT they knew what was expected. I've seen some very embarrassing failures with those who did not know the 'script'. Tell me that you have tested it on the street etc. and grown men fall down and I'll give you the benefit of my huge doubt. If it were at all authentic we would need no other techniques. I have seen no evidence in any video of the Aikido 'masters' apart from Tohei to support this practice. Of course, those who demonstrate this stuff always have an excuse that the recipient's Ki was not in tune or some other gobbledegook. A recent class of Ki Aikido I watched did everything 'magical' to show Ki moving an opponent, except when the beginner was on the receiving end - he was made to feel that the failure was his fault, not that he had uncovered the 'Emperor's New Clothes' as a sham. The version I heard (from a contemporary of his in Japan) is that Tohei came up with this stuff because he injured his back falling downstairs and could not perform dynamic Aikido any more. The source of his style of 'Ki Development' exercises was not, I think, anything he learned from O Sensei , unless you can show me an example? Sorry, but I think it denegrates the art of Aikido to reduce it to pointy fingers. We all possess and use 'Ki' in its proper social context as our shared life energy. If someone directs his body at us and we redirect it, 'Ki' has been received and used. It's not a mystical science, just life energy. ALL Aikido is 'Ki Aikido' - hence the name. The Japanese, I am told, enquire about another's 'Ki' as we would ask after someone's health. Breath itself is life. Prana, Ki or whatever you choose to call it, but please don't ask me to believe in Star Wars 'force' which can be sent to unbalance an opponent. I'd sooner stare them out and use body language for that. .
In some respects I'm with Kiaki on this point (pardon the pun) however, as Bill has already pointed out, it is quite possible to disturb uke's 'centre' without physically touching them but, this is not some 'pointy finger' exercise but exploitation of suki. When I teach aspects of this principle I illustrate the visual responses in uke by presenting a sword or bokuto in ken-no-kamae and invite uke to attack. The hesitancy shown (from uke) when facing a weapon is, as Bill has pointed out before, should be exactly the same hesitancy when we stand empty handed. Regardless of whether we have a weapon at hand or not, we should present ourselves in such a way that uke sees no opening therefore his confidence in attack is weak. This is all part and parcel of strategy learned as a matter of course in Kendo and schools of Koryu Iaido, remembering of course that Aikido is heavily influenced by the sword. IMHO schools of aikido which place little or no emphasis on long term understanding and study of both ken and jo lack the perception of strategy when performing taiso. Just as an edit to the above, I'd also state that I see this in almost ever Karate class I've attended thus far, the role of uke and tori are never completely defined (in a way that most aikidoka wrongly percieve) and because karateka are never standing - IE ...waiting to be attacked to perfom waza... their spirit is always being projected forward 'against' their training partner.
CONFUSED!!ME? I have never been told to lead my partner's ki. I have been told that if he hesitates attack his face to DRAW OUT his ki. (you can see how I can be confused by semantics) Again it comes down to the difference between aiki and awase. Aiki is harmony awase is blending (semantics again) I think the problem arises when uke is told to harmonise with the technique. In my training tori had to blend (awase) or be struck. When after many years tori developed a powerful technique uke HAD to blend or be injured. So I shall continue to attempt to see the similarities rather than concentrate on the differences between ki aikido and aikido. Welcome back Dave regards koyo "negative posture drawing out his k(i) nife attack"
Would people STOP AGREEING WITH ME! It makes me nervous! Seriously, though, I do not dismiss Tohei's Aikido, neither his own nor what he taught. The Ki Aikido I've seen uses the same basic techniques as the rest. It is just the silly 'Ki Development' exercises where Sensei can shift 10 men with a pointy finger and me, cos I'm learning, can only topple three! There is mind manipulation at work at the level of the street hypnotist. If I programme you correctly you will fall over because you expect to. He was a good salesman, even 'inventing' Kiatsu, which is kinda redundant when we already have Shiatsu - which Shudokan used frequently in our classes and Summer Schools. I guess the difference between Aikido and a Karate contest is that in the latter both opponents know they are expected to attack and defend. Sadly, some Aikidoka believe that they must wait for an attack and then be responsive, perhaps because it is preferred morally only to defend oneself passively. However, unless I've misunderstood, if I am Tori I can do as I please. We never had 'rules' for what a Tori should not do, so in jiyuwaza we often initiated and led as Tori and also attacked Uke when he was getting up or reaching for the tanto etc. It was part of the 'martial' aspect and spiced things up nicely. In a grading, failing to dominate and control Uke was regarded very poorly. It's also more fun to turn the tables and do the unexpected.
In my very lowly first kyu opinion, it seems to me that some ki development exercises that seem really mystical and junk may actually be demonstrating some very real principles. But my teachers are very grounded in the reality of what's physically possible.
Hi aikikainovice and welcome We seam to be in agrement see post 115 your opinions are most welcome as are any comments or questions regards koyo
Welcome Aikikai Novice, Don't worry about it, I hold absolutely no rank in any martial art, (nor will I ever accept one), it doesn't stop me bumping my gums. The Bear.
