Martial Art Of Aikido - Training

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by koyo, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I know what I would do in my karate days. I probably would turn to engage the others (almost giving my back to Gerry), then thrust in with a strong back kick to Gerry's solar plexus / mid section. This would be using my longest weapon to the "closest target" to intercept his attack and drive him away, hopefully stunned.

    I'm not getting a great feeling about other options at the moment, but I'm still thinking something like entering deeply to Gerry's left while facing his right. I'm trying to think of the "deal with the one and the others will follow" concept.

    I remember being taught in Aikido that one can drop down and enter between two attackers. e.g. I would drop down and irimi to Gerry's right side, from there I could get his back and use him as a body shield and throw him into the others. I've found moving between two only really works if they are already within punching range and moving forward, if they are futher away they can easily track me.

    The problem I've had in these situations is that people can train to attack in numbers, if two on one, Attacker A will always try to stay to my right front and attack the right side of my body only. Attacker B will always try to stay to my left front and attack my left side of my body only. If I give my back they will move to attack from my sides in a way not to be open to my kicks.

    I think that whatever I do, it would involve a change in height, probably a dropping down low while getting off the line of attack, and then coming back up high and back low like a wave. I might even enter pass Gerry sideways, almost butt first. :eek: This would allow me control over his centerline should he step forward with his right, or it gives me a shot at his back if he does not step but instead shuffles forward keeping left lead. Trying to get him ultimately between me and the others.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2006
  2. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Rebel

    Spot on with your reply. If you look at the photo and draw a line between David and Gerry , making it the base of the triangle, I have positioned myself at the apex allowing me to (as you said) enter to David's right or Gerry's left placing one attacker between me and the others.. Again as you said I would not attempt to pass between them. The point I am trying to make is that rather than address individual attacks before contact try to control distance and timing and be pre-emptive. An SAS buddy told me if you are ambushed do not go to ground, attack with full firepower.

    I wonder what the others think?

    Regards koyo

    Edit any thoughts on action before contact?
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Be at peace with God.

    Maybe not the answer you seek from me... I will have to come back on this thought but getting a wall behind me and don't think about escape comes to mind.

    The mind of the attackers could lead them to try to cut off the angles to prevent my retreat, thus moving to escape could give my back to the attackers.

    Perhaps wrong and weird for me to think, but my back becomes my front and my front becomes my back. I sort of circle ready to attack especially to my "blind side" just where there is my peripheral vision..
     
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    This should be an interesting exchange particularly from an aikidp perspective. Since real fighting is against all that aikido promotes. We do not approach fighting from a competative view. It must be assumed that the attack has not been solicited and that it is impossible to "bring reason to an unreasonable situation."
    Any action must be made using SAS Surprise attacking against superior numbers rather than defending with absolutely no thought of the possibility of defeat.
    Agression attacking with 100 % spirit and instinctively.
    Sustain keeping up the attack until escape is possible or the fight is over.
    The technique below was applied in this manner with no warning to the uke and applied "where he stood" washing over him.

    More on this subject later

    Regards koyo
     

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    Last edited: Aug 22, 2006
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Koyo,

    We have talked quite a bit about the principles, and relating to principles we have talked about spirit as in fighting spirit and we have talked about acting instinctively. However, here we touch upon tactics.

    I've been told that someone must learn two things in martial arts, (1) the understanding and application of principles, (2) the use of tactics and strategy.

    Now there is a saying, "it is good to have a plan" and there is another saying that "everybody has a plan until they are punched in the face".

    Having a plan is like strategy, it really can help. However, when "punched in the face" strategy can fall apart unless the underlying tactics are solid, just as technique can fall apart without good underlying principles.

    I will try to keep this post short. One tactic when faced against one or multiple attackers is to "create a break in combat" meaning to create a point in combat where the flow of the attacker's is broken and they are not able to attack you effectively, but they tend to be so pre-occupied with the thought of attack that their defense is weak.

    Like an opening, this break is very short and by the time you realize it is there, it probably is too late to exploit it. Attacking during this break is often an instinctive reaction if it is to be effective. This is the heart of broken timing, breaking the timing of the enemy and attacking.

    The best example of which is what you posted Koyo, the defender is caught standing "flat footed" totally open and unable to defend or attack effectively.
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Another tactic: When put at the disadvantaged position, speed things up. Conversely when in an advantaged position slow things down.

    To apply this tactic when dealing with multiple opponents, you must speed things up. Take the battle to them, take them out of their comfort zone where they are more likely to be vulnerable and make mistakes.

    Conversely if you outnumber the enemy, systematically close off their routes of escape but leave one. So if three on one, take your three and cut off three directions of escape and let the "mouse" run in the fourth where you trap and ambush him.

    Even if one on one, if I am on the bottom and someone is coming down on me, I should speed things up to get out of that position by moving faster than the opponent expects me too. If I am the one on top, then I can slow things down to maintain a position of advantange and systematically work to submission, choke out, or pin.
     
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Rebel

    As far as "slower or faster" than the attacker that sounds like aiki wo hazo breaking the rythm to me.An example is, when attacked powerfully from the front, to retreat with one step backwards using "corner step" while defending the centrelinethis is done just slightly slower than the attacker and draws him in.When musubi (contact) is made you are already in the kuzushi and in an advantageous position.In swordsmanship this is often called "to cut him slowly" meaning you cut into the area that your attacker is approaching. It feels really strange when applied on you. You have the feeling that you know it is coming but just cannot escape!!

    Regards
    koyo
    seen this photo before but it illustrates the principle perfectly
     

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    Last edited: Aug 23, 2006
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Is aiki wo hazo considered a principle?

    I'm wondering if what I call tactics is really just the decision of when and how to apply principles.
     
  9. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    QUOTE KOYO: "It feels really strange when applied on you. You have the feeling that you know it is coming but just cannot escape!!"

    The mind is capable of being duped and may lose all sense of 'real time' under duress. Both in SD and in car crashes I have experienced that slow observation which stretches the moment into a prolonged and graphic experience. I'm sure we have this ability in order that we may act to avoid damage - but maybe that 'action' part of our instinct has been lost - so we still 'crash and burn' unless we find ways to control our minds and the influence of external distortion.

    A friend in Shotokan trained with someone who was always able to hit him with a spinning kick (maegaeri? - badly spelt?) even though he always saw it coming.

    I don't think even stress is needed for this phenomenon to occur. I once watched a bad car crash in 'slo-mo' as a woman's head went ever-so-slowly through the windscreen and then slowly back again. I was present at another fatal crash when an old car virtually exploded - agian in slo-mo. Weird. In MA practice I have never experienced this, but in SD I have and getting hit brought me back to 'real time' - so if in doubt, slap yourself!. :)
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    kiaiki what you said I can identify with. Some say seeing things in slow motion has to do with being in a "heightened sense of awareness." One aspect of this I have experienced is the feeling that my opponent is moving in slow motion.

    Well, one thing to consider about seeing things in slow motion is that the mind takes a moment to process things in detail. So in reality, when you see things in slow motion, the actual fact is that what you see has already happened (you are fractions of a second behind what is actually happening in the present).

    Hard to explain, but if I see anything in slow motion, that is the point I should already have responded and my atemi is hitting the mark. If I wait until after things go into slow motion, it is already too late to respond to a threat, although it might not be too late to "bail out" to save myself.

    Just my thoughts out loud.
     
  11. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    it may also be an aspect of FUSHIN or FUDOSHIN which we have yet to exploit and develop to the extent needed for good ZANSHIN?
     
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    FUDOSHIN

    Often attitude or spirit would be used to describe the "mind" Fudoshin was described as an unshakeable mind rather than immovable (which suggested rigid) Unafraid incapable of being intimidated by "stronger" opponents or greater numbers. Or challenges. Once Tamura shihan had us execute thousands of sword cuts :) finally saying "last hundred" we counted down to the last cut then he said "second last hundred" The effect on some was traumatic while a few of us just continued cutting. A basic grasp of Fudoshin.

    Good post guys

    Regards koyo
     

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    Last edited: Aug 24, 2006
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Mushin

    To save or TAKE life without judgement.

    Comments
     

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    Last edited: Aug 24, 2006
  14. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    As I get into my 50's I tend to believe that our personalities and qualities are partly innate and partly shaped by our MA. I believe everyone should be encouraged to achieve at the highest level they can, but I'm getting pretty fed up with seeing kids being promised the earth when the reality is that most won't even make a high Kyu grade, unless they pay a McDojo. A dose of realism is required as well as motivation. Is everyone really capable of developing, for example, good 'zanshin' or 'fudoshin'?

    This is the 'Bruce Lee' or 'Karate Kid' syndrome: 'If I train in JKD like Bruce Lee I will be like him - a superb kick-ass athlete', whilst ignoring the man's natural ability. If we were all given his training and exposure to MA, dance etc etc I bet he'd still be the only one to come through to the top. This also applies to O Sensei and other leading MA figures given superhero status. IMHO they carried on training at the top because they were exceptionally mentally and physically gifted - I don't think MA alone can give that to you if you are not built to take it.

    It would be wonderful to believe that we could all train into our 80's and be as devastating - but the reality is much more mundane - the hearts, lungs and joints of most humans let them down even if their spirit remains strong.

    I've never seen any stats but it would be interesting for a large organisation like Aikikai to put out some figures on how many members drop out at what stage and at what age. My own view is that many give up early on because they don't want to dedicate themselves enough to achieve a level which satisfies them and/or their peers and instructors. Some see grading as an end and drop out after achieving a coveted BB. Others, like me, get damaged physically and have to stop or end up even more busted up.

    The last point is controversial. As an instructor I may be OK to demonstrate etc up to a point, but if I cannot perform as a Uke at the level I would want I would personally rather not be on the mat.

    I know there are senior grades who instruct and who I've never seen Uke outside of demonstrating a single technique. Certainly, the stamina and speed required to Uke properly in a 'freestyle' jiyuwaza is beyond most men of my age, let alone older. We've plenty of unfit youngsters, too, but they can be trained. Old guys can't train their way out of angina or rheumatism.

    It boils down to the old issue - nature or nurture: does our genetic makeup predispose us to become exceptional, or can anyone be moulded into a superstar with all the mental and physical prowess of O Sensei?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2006
  15. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Kiaiki

    Personally I think it is down to your early training , if that has been true then later on your experience is of great importance to the students.In the early days of aikido fukoshidoin (pioneers) of aikido received what would be regarded as almost brutal training today.To become a teacher great discipline phisical and in personal behaviour was demanded.The deepest respect for your own art in particular and all martial arts in general was a prerequisite.

    Young men should be encouraged to train powerfully and those whom are older must share their experience showing how to perform the art powerfully with less effort and more mastery of principles.

    It is the tendancy by some to present aikido as a user friendly art so as to attract and keep high numbers of students that worries me. Where will the future teachers of aikido come from?
    Aikido is indeed a lifelong experience in early training the challenge is to endure proper training and discipline in later life the challenge is to be a proper example for beginners to aspire to. I have seen many long time practisioners stop (usually because of politics) What a sad loss to aikido.

    Regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2006
  16. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    Indeed. Some avoid even a small amount of pain or exhaustion - both of which were characteristic of all our training sessions (or we weren't training hard enough!). Yes, we put some people off, but they were often referred to 'gentler' clubs in the area if they were more into 'ki' exercises than martial applications.

    Discipline and respect are also becoming rarer, as is risk taking in a world of litigation. An example: One local instructor, whose club I was visiting, arrived late and meandered onto the mat with a fag in his mouth. He wanted to know what we were doing. 'Leaving' was my reply, as I bowed off and left.

    I agree with the point about sharing your experience and showing greater skill which needs less power. However, I would maintain that precious few older students would be a satisfactory Uke in a session where anaerobic and aerobic fitness, speed and flexibility are required. (Present company excepted, of course!)

    Those who have achieved high status are likely to be exceptional people and may be able, like Yoshinkan's Shioda or Thamby Rajah, to do this. Personally, I've not seen many 6th Dans or more senior instructors getting smashed into the deck fiteen times and bounce up with a fierce attack every time. And then be Uke for five more jiyuwaza without a break.

    My point is that the average beginner may easily be duped into believing that he is destined to perform as well as those few MA 'greats'. In reality, the chances of getting beyond 1st Dan may be 1:50 and 6th Dan 1:1,000 for all I know. I'd just be interested to find out the facts on dropouts (or 'leavers' if you prefer) from Aikikai, BAB or some other group with a database to consult. Who left, at what stage, age/gender, why? Does one style lose more than the others? Does Aikido lose more than Taekwondo? If so, should we do it to music? (Joking! :))

    Early exposure to training in MA is excellent, but I'm still sure that genetics plays a large part. If your genetics lead you to grow up to be 7 foot tall and 9 stone you will have problems with those long levers and fewer muscle fibres, however early you begin training and however much you work out. Your mind has both IQ and EQ (emotional quotient) and again I'm sure we are born with much of that, as cases I've read about of identical twins, raised apart in different families, have shown., and from my own years working in educating both the bright and also those who would drown even in the shallow end of the 'gene pool'.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm not sure if I understand you here.

    As people get older, it takes longer for them to recover to injuries and fatigue compared to when they were eighteen years old. This is true in most cases I would say. As such the goals of training can change in order to keep learning and people adjust to be able to pace themselves. They make these adjustments not out of laziness or fear but because it is necessary.

    I don't see how getting smashed fifteen times and bouncing up with a fierce attack every time is a measure of martial proficiency. Why not a hundred or a thousand times then?

    How I view this is that you don't have to be particularly smart, big or strong to do martial arts, but those things do help. However, if someone needs an uke (and other than being injured or not having the skill to do so), there is little reason why you should not be the first one to volunteer for it.

    Each time you might be a little slower getting up, and at some point you need to consider your limitations.

    We have a sort guideline in our training, we attack as hard as we expect to be hit back. So we attack very hard at times and we suffer the consequences. If we can get up and attack even harder that is a sign to tori/nage that they can use more force (hurt us more). The idea is that nage applies technique until we do not get up anymore.

    Attacking hard fifteen times without a break is just very strange to me at advanced levels. If I don't feel damaged, then just how effective is nage's technique at putting someone down should they have to use it to defend their life or the life of others.

    Of course there is the thought that this damage not have to be lethal, but it does have to be effective at convincing me not to want to continue.

    I go by the seven second rule. From first point of contact, three seconds standing, four seconds on the ground... no longer than that to take out the opponent.

    In training last Thursday, one of the students failed to apply good technique on me so I resisted, we ended up in a wrestling match on the ground, him having me in a front on neck lock. I took a defensive position (I did not try to counter him) to keep him from choking me out but because I was not aggressive in any manner, I knew it was only a matter of time before he would submit me.

    He almost quit several times because he got so tired but we encouraged him to continue. He tried to get various submissions on me but failed, eventually he tapped me out with an armbar. Altogether I figure it took between one and two minutes for him to get there.

    He told me that he was so tired he would have given up and it seemed to him that I was getting stronger the whole time. I was not even winded at the end of this, does that mean I was a bad uke?

    At the end of class I then drilled them on how important it is to speed things up when on the bottom and we worked on sweeps from the bottom position. The escape and reversal to get out of the orginal necklock he had on me took less than one second to perform and everyone that tried it got it to work against a resisting opponent.

    Was I being a bad uke because I did not immediately counter his not great technique with a fierce attack and submit him? Instead I just allowed him to try out things until he got something that worked.

    I felt everyone learned something and I think that is very important in training.
     
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Rebel

    I have had the priviledge of attacking kendo shihan . All thatwas required was that I attack with full spirit and "perfect" technique. They only defended. If my spirit weakened I would be struck. If I made what was for me a "perfect technique" which did not happen too often they would let the strike through. This type of training was called sempai kohai and is intended to "draw out" the spirit of the student. I think that is what you were talking about.
    As you say a very important manner of training

    regards koyo
     

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  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks Koyo.

    Just the very last part of my previous post was talking about this "sempai kohai."

    Now I have a name for it, thank you.
     
  20. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I've personaly never understood why people pride themselves on getting smashed up during training. A part of what martial arts is all about for me at least is looking after your self. So to me it seems a bit pointless to train in a manner where you'll end up so broken and bruised you can no longer practice.

    I've know students who were well into their 50s who were stronger and wiser uke than their 20 something counter parts. Speed isn't always the critical factor. What older uke lack in speed they make up in experience. Which I think is extreamly valuable for younger students to learn from. It's the older more experienced uke who'll take advantage of that opening others don't see and apply the counter a 20 something uke didn't even know was possible.

    I think one of Aikidos greatest stengths is that it attracts a very broad range of people all looking for different things. And each of those uke highlight different aspects of technique.
     

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