Aikiwolfie - sorry, I had moved on to Sankajo when describing a move froma collar hold, but was trying so hard to make up the Japanese for it, I put Eri Mochi Kote Gaeshi instead of Sankajo. However, IMHO, escaping from someone's grip is a nicety when done in the dojo. Without atemi most of our Aikidoka have a grip plenty strong enough to resist the traditional escape, especially when they know it's coming, and hit you a couple of times while you are trying. Weak thumbs are not a characterisitc of Aikidoka who regularly use weapons or have studied other 'gripping' MA such as Judo, or who train with free weights. I would never rely on it, but our training always involved resistance and deviousness when exploring a technique in depth. If they have no hold on you then it's a real test of distance and timing, especially in a freestyle situation (jiyuwaza); they have 2 hands free to hit you with and will not necessarily offer their right side for you to take the right hand with your left. Kote gaeshi in that situation has to flow entirely from what you are given. Good advice to beginners is never to start with a particluar technique in mind unless Uke is doing a series of identical attacks for practice. Surely if you keep Uke's arm close to their body then your own arm is extended and weakened. By keeping their wrist tight into your 'hara' you can turn in fast tight circles that have more control and balance, and much stronger centrifugal force for minimal effort, so the wrist twist forces ukemi, or Uke gets damaged. If your arm is at all extended it invites a struggle IMHO. I would rather my hips do the work than my arms. here's what I consider sloppy, sacrificing posture with an over-compliant uke who (yes it's a demo) makes it look effective when it's not. Apologies to the participants : http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6308805808405649581&q=Kote+Gaeshi I can see how it could lead into a pin if Uke sits down and the wrist can then be taken to the floor. This is actually more like what a street attacker would do who knew no ukemi - only by then he'd probably have a broken wrist. If a pin were the only option I would take uke's arm outwards from his body to amplify the pain on the way down, as soon as his path to the floor is under way. Not being confrontational, I just can't visualise how you can apply this by 'taking up the slack in uke's wrist'. IMHO there shoud be no slack if the attack is meaningful - it should surely be for Tori to use atemi or a surprise move (this may be subtle and not fast - surprise is not the same as speed) to create the opening in which it may be applied. If as Uke I am punching or gripping or holding a weapon, there is no slack at all and I would not relax it just because my balance was taken. Sorry, still can't see why I would relax my grip unless I am hit or distracted and I still can't see how this particlular technique may be applied slowly without an escape or counter... any videos, anyone, to show me Kote Gaeshi applied slowly and effectively without a surprise or atemi to lead into it?
Hi giys Having trained for so long kote gaeshe dose not have so much of an effect on my wrist BUt if it is applied to a kuzushi causing my wrist to turn my elbow which turns my shoulder destroy ing my balance it works but the faster the better for tori's safety The video the attack would not reach if it did it would not hurt the atemi would only make me angry and you etc Regards koyo
I like the 'applied' form of shiho nage we use in jiyuwaza for that. Take the arm nice and wide and cut down hard - wrist, elbow, shoulder and collarbone all taken out! Nice
I find what you say to be very true. ------------ Now Kote Gaeshi is not my best technique by far, but I don't see why it would not follow the same sequence as any locking technique as taught to me: 1. grip (position and control of uke in correct way to set up technique) 2. penetration & taking up the slack (penetrate deeply and leave no free space for uke to escape) 3. lock (isolation, immobilization) 4. top of the lever (leverage) 5. break/throw/pin/submit (follow-through) Note that atemi can happen as part of any of the above steps, and also note that steps 1-5 can be done individually or in one fluid action, it is the sequence that is most important. Failure of technique usually means one or more of the above steps is not accomplished, and order is important. A Kote Gaeshi in theory should break the wrist if uke does not use ukemi to protect him/herself. The problem with Kote Gaeshi IMHO, is that many try to skip to 3-5 steps without first establishing the 1-2 steps. This leaves room for uke to maneuver, resist, and counter the technique. The first counter to Kote Gaeshi is to cut out in the direction the elbow in a circular (rotation of the arm) way faster than nage expects, there are other counters too but most in my experience are similar in concept. For instance, if my palm is facing down with a tanto, I'm going to "twirl" the blade to cut nage's wrists as I cut across nage's stomach to escape. So if nage can control my elbow and shoulder, I cannot make this counter because my escape route will be cut off. If my palm is facing up, I'm going to use my free hand to "slap" my grabbed hand down. If my arm is extended as to keep me from bending my elbow as I do this, then I cannot make this counter. Of course, if I were much stronger and bigger, the option of just using strength to resist and escape is always there, but the better the nage's technique, the less strength alone is going to be a reliable counter for uke.
Kiaki Here is a similar shiho nage were I to pull in my right hand all of the injuries you spoke of woul apply that is why my left hand is insuring his safety. Regards koyo
That's the baby! We tended to release as a projection for safety rather than protect later in the fall. Same for Sankajo - ouch. Ours would have landed more to the side rather than in front, as their arm is stretched right out across the top of Tori's, palm up, before being cut down. On the street, fo course, no ukemi would happen so the arm would be taken out and broken while still standing.
Here is Chris (winning at last) with kote gaeshe turned to ude gaeshe note angle of uke's forearm Koyo
Nice picture... you have a good eye at finding appropriate pictures. Often I will end up with control of uke's forearm, getting that same angle as in the picture usually downs them even without the kote gaeshi. But I guess that's the point you are trying to get across.
In martial arts a great difference has always been made between KEIKO which is practice wherein we study the techniques and principles and Renshu wherein we experince the tachniques. When Tada shihan warned against training (renshu) above our skill levels he warned that such techniques could only be performed with the aid of the attacker (harmony) This completely negates the training, Saito shihan earned that we should not execute flowing techniques until at least third dan level. Thoughts koyo
I agree and disagree I think that what you stated is very true and should be used as part of a measure for quality training. Simply amazing stuff you have received through your years of experience... fantastic. :love: What I don't agree with is trival perhaps, but for many a very simple technique can be taught to flow well without a lot of time. I feel that along with technique of a more complex manner, a person should be given the opportunity to learn simple technique that can be used right away (in a much lesser amount of time). In this manner, even beginners have something they can use should they need to protect themselves. Some examples are a basic palm smash technique, elbow strikes to the rear... etc. and for against grabs some use of how to move the the arms and body with the shoulders in a relaxed manner to escape grabs, against neck locks how to "turtle". Practice these technique against a resisting attacker. People learn from success and if they can succeed in even the most simple basic things against a resisting attacker, then they can use that knowledge and experience to help them succeed with more complex techniques. Just some thoughts.
Agreed Rebel what I am speaking of are those who execute dynamic techniques which are really the results of a dynamic UKE and little to do with their own skill. As you say there are basic pragmatic technques that are almost immediately effective. Regards koyo Don't get hit get behind him throw his head not his body. Pragmatic irrimi nage
Hi Koyo, In my opinon only a very few places in the UK do proper renshu. There is a very good reason for this, it is a risky business. Where full attacks are being launched permanent injury or even death can happen. Usually once a person has reached a certain level they understand he risks involved in advanced training and either remain at this level or accept the risk. I always add aleast a little resistance when studying techniques with people because it shows the points that need work. The bear
Hi Bear If I read you correctly you are saying that people should practice just that little bit ahead of their abilities. If so my point exactly. Realistic training can only be done by those who have engaged in realistic practice. Good to hear from you Regards koyo
Gah, I was explaining how important it is to unbalance someone before attempting a locking technique in class today. I did various techniques to demonstrate, at one point I decided to go with kote gaeshi and thinking how would be the best way to unbalance uke.... well long story short as I moved in the tenkan part of irimi-tenkan, having grabbed his right hand from the outside, I turned uke's hand so it faced palm up as I turned. This aligned uke's elbow downward into a place where uke was very unbalanced allowing for me to transition with a step back with my left foot while twisting uke's wrist with both my hands. Uke could not counter this. It worked very well. The palm up so that the elbow aligned to a point of unbalance in Uke seemed to be a piece of the unbalancing I have been missing.
Yep - it works to create a solid link from the wrist to the elbow and makes the shoulder and rest of the body follow. Here's what we do: Having taken a step back with the left foot and started his rotation, step forward with the right to keep solid posture and control close to your body. This also places you in position for the final lock out. I've seen lots of people tenkan with the left leg and end up overbalancing - crying out for uke to pull them over.
BACKWARDS TO THE SIDE This is an underlying principle of most aikido techniques it is here that the most effective kuzushi is to be found. In all techniques it is most important to destroy the posture of the attacker in this direction (rather than simply twist his wrist in kote gaeshe) . It is overall control of the attacker we seak rather than a single limb. Good posts guys regards koyo unbalanced backward to the side BEFORE kote gaeshe applied
MUSUBI Many budo principles are in play even before the attacker is engaged. Primary among these are zanshin (awareness) and damashi (superior attitude) These can only be aquired through many years of training "with a sense of danger" They can never be achieved with a compliant partner. When likely to come under attack many "sicknesses" can assail the mind such as fear, uncertainty , confusion , anger etc. Musubi is the instant that contact with an opponent is made at this time we must be at our most positive in mind and body. Only through diligent training may we hope to remain calm in these circumstances. Rather than "think" of posibilities of attack we strive to control distance timing and to assess the attacker's spirit and to see all and every opening his approach may offer. In the photo below under multiple attack I can clearly see Gerry's intention and his kamae "suggests" a right handed attack however my thought must be on body alignment because of the other attacker directly in front of me. What to do???? Note zanshin musubi has already been made before physical contact. your thoughts Koyo
