Martial Art Of Aikido - Training

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by koyo, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I could very well be wrong here but I'd hazard a guess that the hakama has become a symbol of dan grade status in many organisations. Which is something it was never meant to be. So I can see why someone who rejects grades might also reject the wearing of a hakama. There is a certain logic there.
  2. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Joe,

    What is unappropriate about jogging trousers and a t-shirt? I wear the same outfit when I train at the Tai Chi club and when I fence I wear the same. Maybe you should turn up one night for training without it and see what happens.

    If I am there to train hard what I wear should be immaterial. The art is Japanese, I am not.

    As for organisations/gradings, I am unsure how not imposing limitations is negative. As for a political statement, it is a statement of a complete refusal to even join in the game.

    I do not "teach" anyone and I ask no money from anyone who wishes to train beside me, except to cover cost of the hall. The little I know is freely shared with anyone willing to give some of their time.

    I completely respect your decision to work within an organisation and if all the instructors showed the dedication and decency of yourself then perhaps I could be won over. Experience however has shown this is not currently the case. My training time is short enough without fighting political battles and personalities.

    The Bear.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2007
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    The last few lines of your post hits home. WE do not have time for politics and personalities. Indeed I asked when I started the martial arts of aikido posts that all who post here leave the politics and personalities out.I know your personal distate for politics so PLEASE do not go there.

    regards koyo
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2007
  4. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    As you wish.

    The Bear.
  5. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    And incidentally there are other threads about attire in the dojo like this one on hakama. Perhaps further discussion on hakama and gi should take place there.
  6. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.


    Because many have chosen to emphasise the philosophy of traditional martial arts the martial efficacy of the techniques has been brought into question.We do not wish to fight or compete BUT if we must then the principle of enten jizai is paramount.

    This means thet EVERY movement we may make must contain attack and defence as on. The movement that carries us out of line of an attack also places us in a position to mount an attack.

    Since attack and defence are one , the mind does not concern itself with defence.Attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit and dominate the attacker in an instant by going from alert to 100% sustained attack.

    This mind set cannot accept the rules of competition or even for an instant allow the thought of defeat. Should two budoka fight in this manner one ot both shall be seriously injured.

    How then can we test our techniques? My early training demanded that I mount commited attackd against shihan or sempai with little hope of success. This demanded a spirit that would not be broken no matter how many times I was struck or thrown to the mat.This develops a good fighting spirit, to comtinue under stress.It is our spirit that we must test more so than technique. The techniques are pragmatic and are effective when executed with a strong spirit.

    We must deny the attacker opportunity. We must deny him the space and time to excute techniques. Traditional martial arts teach us all of this however if they lack the sincerity of hard and demanding practice then they are not budo.

    As for competition, personally I enjoyed it however having had real fights the mind set and circumstances are quite different.I admire and respect those martial artists who insist on emphasising competition however I for one find all that I need in traditional martial arts.

    you thoughts?

    regards koyo

    Enten jizai (attacker is Big Paul) just back safely from Afghanistan.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 26, 2007
  7. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    really well put koyo...again.
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Dento

    I was hoping for some input from others on their attitude to this mind set. I know it is NOT popular with quite a few "aikidoka". The consensus of opinion being the I have a "fighting mind". :Angel:

    regards koyo
  9. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I see absolutely nothing wrong with that mind set. And if you have no choice but to fight then it's probably the best option. Even with the ura waza that made up the bulk of the syllabus that I was taught, every movement was supposed to be there for a reason. And our focus always supposed to be on the guy doing the attacking.

    While that might not be exactly that same as what you describe above koyo, I think I can identify with your post and certainly wouldn't criticise it. I hate to see people pussy foot around in Aikido. If the technique doesn't work it's pointless.
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Focus on the guy doing the attacking. That is the major difference in "modern day" aikido and traditional aikido as I was taught.
    We were taught to focus on the opponent with the intention of stopping him attacking. Ura was thought of as a "mistake" on our part because the opponent has been allowed to initiate a powerful attack that puts us on the defence.

    I understand why this is so (I think) It is because some see no difference in the philosophy of aikido which is not to fight and the reality of an un provoced confrontation.I do not question the fact that I do not want to fight, but I MUST question..if I must fight CAN I?

    Where ideology and reality meet. There is where I find my philosophy.

    regards koyo
  11. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I have reopened this thread as it contains much that addresses the question "has aikido gone in the wrong direction?" posted by Jester.
    Some teachers have left aikido and created their own versions by dropping atemi saying they are un aiki. Some are more interested in the number of students than the quality of those students. Some have even taken it to mystical lengths claiming to be able to throw without contact etc.

    Teachers have a respocibility to the student. Teaching an aikido that is not only ineffective in a real situation but damn right dangerous for the "aikidoka."

    There is no "sense of danger" in what passes for attacks in some schools and a completely ineffective approach to real conflict.

    While we must live our lives in an altruistic manner it is most dangerous to believe that a "pacifist art" shall be effective when needed.

    regards koyo

  12. Rock Ape

    Rock Ape Banned Banned

    ..Do you study suwari waza?

    Practice techniques from any katate dori or bukiwaza ?

    My point being "pointless" isn't a word I would expect to see used from an aikidoka with at least a grasp upon a larger picture of what "aikido" essentially represents.

    Nothing in aikido is "pointless" it just has to be applied... correctly... both physically and mentally for it to be functional relative to its purpose.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2007
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Yes I train in suwari waza for powerfull legs and hip movement. I use the katadori as "exercises" in tai no henko (I do not regard them as attacks)
    Token atemi to me are useless however I do not see them as part of aikido. I agree there is nothing useless in aikido. However training with overly compliant partners no sense of danger from the attacker is certainly useless to me but again I do not see them as part of aikido more the "wrong direction".

    JUst noticed that the post was not directed to me sorry . I was wondering because I had not used the term useless (until now) :)

    regards koyo
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2007
  14. Rock Ape

    Rock Ape Banned Banned

    Dear Coyle Sensei,

    I share your opinion in so much that aikido.. like any martial discipline should maintain a "martial" emphasis even when the methodology or application in training may have other directions or facets associated with it however; (respectfully) if you study in Japan with the vast majority of current hombu shihan, you'll rarely hear them talk about "self defence" or "practicality".

    Indeed I shared tatami with Chiba Sensei during a course in the UK and, when asked by a yudansha what made Aikido a good "self defence art"; Sensei was clearly disturbed at the question and responded quite abruptly with "Aikido is not self defence"

    Whilst I might additionally debate whether the aforementioned attributes have had either a positive improvement or, quite the opposite in the development of "aikido" today; the fact remains that we study a multi-faceted discipline and, learning the ability to fight and, learning to improve one's self through hard rigorous training are two entirely different things as such, and bringing me back to the point of my previous post, nothing is "pointless" in aikido because people study the discipline for many reasons and, for someone, indeed anyone (not you I accept) to say that an aspect of the art is "pointless" because it is seen as non fuctional, indicates to me a singularity of thought which misses a much wider picture.

    Last edited: Jun 15, 2007
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member


    What do you consider to be the "heart" of Aikido (that part of Aikido that should never change)? What do you feel is essential for a strong foundation in Aikido?
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Koryu 101

    I must make this clear (to everyone) I to not train to learn HOW to fight I train (in part) to learnABOUT fighting.All of the principles that make a good fighter timing ,distancing, courage and decisiveness are the same principles that make for a good character. The sensitivity and observation developed through martial practice are the same sensitvity and observation that lead to understanding of others.An cmartial artist attempts to "read" the character of his opponent.An advanced martial aritsts becomes sensitive to others.
    My ability to fight makes me FAR less likely to have to fight.

    regards koyo

    I was Chiba shihan's uke for ten years and have had many conversations with him and have heard him answer such questions abriptly. Aikido is MUCH more than self defence, a yudansha should know if his technique is effective.After a particularly traumatic session Chiba shihan said to me "Aikido is a confrontation of two spirits. That is where you learn."
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2007
  17. Rock Ape

    Rock Ape Banned Banned

    This is a difficult question to fully answer but, I feel we must strive to maintain an understanding of the origins (the koryu aspects) of the discipline for it to have sense in our gendai (modern) study.

    By having a good understanding the origins results IMHO in the development of solid kihon. - Kihon is the foundation upon which everything else is built however; for KIHON (basics) to have context it must have connection through the student's understanding of the origins IE why we move in particular ways, rotation of the forearms and the link between taiso and bukiwaza as examples.
    Indeed because when harmony exists we don't need to perform aikido
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2007
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thank you for your insightful reply Koryu101.

    These days, I see a foundation as an understanding of core principles and the practice and sincere training to apply those principles. In order to do such however, it is of great value to understand the origins, contexts and the connection to basics (kihon).

    Sometimes I feel that martial arts in general becomes too academic in nature, more towards discussion and philosophy at the neglect of sincere training. IMHO.
  19. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    As you say above 'too much talk not enough training." That is why whenever I find anything of value in these exchanges I take it to the next training session and experience it.

    regards koyo
  20. Rock Ape

    Rock Ape Banned Banned

    Discussion and sharing of opinion is good, but nothing generally positive results from the debate of technique or how it should be studied.

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