Martial Art Of Aikido - Training

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by koyo, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    The videos are posted in a very public place Rebel which leaves them wide open to criticism. If you're going to open yourself up in such away then you must take the bad with good.

    I have no regrets either. No apology required. I have said many times of the past few years that what I have been taught is different from the mainstream.
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Wolfie, I had no idea all the stuff that was going on in your life with training. I hope you keep training, no matter where it is. You seem like martial arts is in your blood, so there probably is no way to stop you anyway.. :love:

    And also, if you take criticism, you must also take compliments :p

    I don't know what techniques those were but the ones where you are being grabbed and you are moving up and down and throwing uke without using your hands... I thought those were awesome. Excellent job.
     
  3. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    LOL. Actually I don't take compliments very well. I always tend to think I could have done better. But thanks anyway. :)

    The techniques were (supposed to be);
    • 9th Form (Ryotetori ... Hold two wrists from front) Ikkyo, Yonkyo, Tenchinage, Kotegaeshi.

    • 10th Form (Ryotori ... Hold shoulders from front) Nikkyo, Shihonage, Kokyunage and another Kokyunage.

    • 11th Form (Ushiro Tekubitori ... Hold wrists from behind) Ikkyo, Sankyo, Kaitenage, an ad-lib Kokyunage for good measure and Kotegaeshi.

    • 12th Form (Ushiro Hijitori ... Hold elbows from behind) Nikkyo, Tenchinage (which did connect with the temple first time round) :yeleyes: , Kokyunage, another Kokyunage also called Sayu Undo.

    • 13th Form (Ushiro Ryo Katatori ... Hold shoulders from behind) Ikkyo, Sankyo, Kokyunage, Kokyunage.

    • 14th Form (Ushiro Katatetori Kubishi ... Hold one wrist and neck from behind) Ad-lib Kotegaeshi, Shihonage, Kokyunage (invented on the spot), Kokyunage, Kotegaeshi.

    • 15th Form (Ushirotori ... Hold arms around body) Sankyo, Kokyunage.

    • 16th Form (Hold collar from behind) Ikkyo, Shihonage, Kotegaeshi.

    • Kokyu Dosa or Kokyu Ho.
    I think when Ken Williams left the Ki Society he called everything Kokyunage when he couldn't remember what it was called :p
     
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Seminar on Sunday. Again there will be cross trainers attending. I shall be addressing the ura v omote concept and post my findings. Should be interesting.

    regards koyo
     
  5. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    My own personal opinion on the "esoteric" aspects of aikido is that aikido cannot be explained by words let alone taught by words.It is learned "through the pores of the skin". Ki need not be sought after it is a natural part of proper training. We shall feel physically stronger with a more powerful fighting spirit (my definition of ki) naturally through sincere training.Discussing this can sidetrack us into areas where we may become confused.(or misled)
    Even the philosophy need not be discussed proper training again shall enable us to gain the courage and confidence to be capable of interaction with others without resorting to violence which is often caused by our own uncertainties.
    Only since posting on the net have I tended to "state my views" and have met little "resistance" yet other threads are full of insults and complications that need not arise.
    Again I think this is down to over thinking instead of trusting your instincts which have been honed over many years of sincere training.I have no problem at all with discussing technical details.


    Your thoughts?



    regards koyo
     

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    Last edited: Mar 14, 2007
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Someone once told me that martial arts is everything, but not everything is for everyone.

    Koyo, I don't believe the problem is over thinking, although I know for a fact that over thinking can lead to ineffective application. Rather I believe that it is more about learning all you can and finding what "fits" you best. And I will clarify that what "fits" you today can change over time.

    For example, some people are like square pegs and you can try all you want to get them to fit in a circular hole, but they will never quite fit. Now find them the right sized square hole and they will fit. Alternatively, maybe they will change over time from a square peg to a more rounded one.

    You posted something about your last seminar and how some people struggled that had been in martial arts for years. My response to this is that this indicates an area where they could improve in. There is nothing wrong with having areas that need work. What I put forth is the idea that there may be other areas where they "fit very well", in fact they excel in. Find both their weak areas AND their strengths... in this manner they will have something to learn from you AND you will have something to learn from them.

    We learn from each other... WE SHARE!!!
     
  7. Excellent post. It's a shame more people won't get to read this in other style forums.
     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Rebel

    Maybe it's just me , but when I read any of your posts, rather than think of an arguement ,I "picture " what you are putting forth and , as I have said, take it to the next session and experience it. Fortunately I cannot remember an exchange when we have not been on the same track.
    Your thoughts on the square peg round hole scenario, I deal with everytime a cross trainer comes to the makotokai. If he is a relative beginner I shall work to his strengths (finding the hole that fits) rather than try ro shape him to my personal way of training which is only correct for me.I will also adapt my tachnique to accomodate his approach and again we both learn.
    BUT IT MUST BE AN EXCHANGE.
    I suppose I am just disappointed that what begins as an exchange often breaks down to an exchange of insults.You and I have never come to that. Why must others?


    regards koyo
     
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Not everyone is interested in exchange. I am sure we have all experienced the type that turn up at a class and enjoys inflicting pain on others but are not willing to receive it. Or those that turn up and just train as they wish without listening to the instructions given.
    To move the thread on a little, everyone has their own style within them. The fault lies with many instructors who think that if someone doesn't do it like them then they are a poor student. Also instrcutors who force student to attempt techniques that would never work against the type of individual they are facing.

    The Bear.
     
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    On over thinking (clarification)

    Just now we have a couple of policemen who have joined recently. When teaching them I shall say "Move to the side as he strikes. Now unbalance him by striking here." Then I shall hear a student teaching them by saying keep you back straight , move this leg, move that leg,if you move in this manner you will be struck and and and.
    This causes the beginner to "over think" While the simple instruction "move to the side" gives him little to think about. Later we shall demand proper kamae and timing.

    The principles are better experienced than explained.And the student must be encouraged to find out for himself. Knowledge shall remain that ubtil it is turned into experience which is of infinitly more value.

    Example I used to think yoshinkan aikido was excellent BUT a little to "stiff" for my taste. Training with David Ruben he said the training is so that we develop a strong base from which to execute the techniques.(I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT)
    Watching multiple attacks I could see no "stiffness". Experiencing it once was all I needed.

    regards koyo
     
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    You are of course right but sometimes in your class things can move on a fair old pace. I have sometimes be caught thinking out the last exercise and the class has moved on. The guys whisper a quick explanation and I can catch up. However, when you are not allowed to talk at ALL, you are forced to waste the other persons time looking like a rabbit in the headlights.
    Also, I don't think there hasn't been a single Makotokai student who hasn't muttered a useful pointer to me when I have been making a mess of things.
    Yes you have to experience to understand but a couple of choice remarks can point in the direction to a better experience.

    The Bear.
     
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Every class I take at the makotokai I choose a principle and stress it. But you know the saying "ask him the time and he tells you how to make a watch!!" The class moves on to a different technique but are in fact studying the same original principle. As you say a few choice words help. That is the crux of the matter. They should be a few choice words.
    The difference between keiko and renshu is one is study where we can exchange observations. The other is where we "study" by feeling the technique. It is during the latter that I demand no taliking.If we learn that we cannot execute the technique than we go back to study. Or if we find a particular weakness then we go back to study.

    There must be a time when we depend on our own instinct to teach ourself. If I can get a student to constantly question himself and strive for the answer himself before asking me I think that is a more effective way of learning.If I am asked I shall give direction so that the student can find the answer himself which shall have more value to him.

    koyo

    I am most interested in your observations on how I teach. My thanks. I shall consider them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    koyo,
    I'll throw another saying back at you "stand on the shoulders of giants". In learning, some of the greatest warrior/scholars known are there because they had access to the greatest instructors. To shorten the learning time, the student needs the master to impart their knowledge to them. The kohai/sempai relationship works well in the eastern culture but doesn't translate well in the west. In the east the master controls the flow of information whereas in the west traditionally the flow is controlled by the student desire/understanding for the knowledge. Some students can approach things more mentally and understand verbal instructions very well, others need to be shown phyiscally. Again we are back to square pegs and round holes.
    When the student is ready they will develop instinct to teach themselves but the instructor cannot force it.

    The Bear.
     
  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I could not help but smile at your last sentence Bear. I was "taught" by Chiba shihan and he MADE ME learn (teach myself) But I take your point if he had made some others face the realities of hard training. They would have left. In fact many did just that just watching the training I received.Was that a bad thing when you see the numbers and the attitude of so many in martial arts today. After a particularly demanding session Chiba shihan told me "True martial artists shall always be in the minority".

    At times in the makotokai you will see an ara waza (severe technique0 Applied which is most effective. But you shall never see them applied on one who cannot accept them.You must give me that :)

    Edit

    Saw 300
    There is a good bit in it when Leonidus comes to the hot gates to be met by other greeks who say you have only brought 300. Leonidus asks one of the greek warriors what is your profession he answers potter another answers sculptor another etc. Leonidus turns to the spartans and asks them their profession. They all answer warriors. Leonidus says I have brought MORE warriors to the battle than you have.
    Nothing to do with this thread honest :Angel:
     

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    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Koyo,
    I don't agree and I'll bet if you spoke to Chiba shihan today neither would he. Chiba provided you with the circumstances you needed to develop, you did the rest yourself.

    And I should hope so, what kind of world have we built if true martial artists were everywhere.

    Yes, but you have to remember, Sparta was a society gone wrong. To build an entirely militaristic society is an aberation and not an achievement. Societies need warriors to protect them but they should not be reason for the societies existence. Sorry too much living with a social theorist I'm afriad!

    A true martial artist is a specialist, I will fall back on one of my favorite authors here to explain my view:

    "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

    -Robert A. Heinlein


    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    In fact Chiba shihan said I am NOT your teacher you may join me in the search.Often I would have a problem and he would answer "Find it yourself."
    His (and others) explanation of sensei is "one who has gone before" not teacher as we understand it. More of an example, something to strive for and surpass.

    How many clubs have you visited to find the students training in their comfort zone or slavishly following the "teachers" ideas of how a martial art must be practised only to find a social event in kits?

    And the spartan post was ment to be humerous BUT I would rather have a small core of dedicated sincere students than a large club with inferior standards any day.

    regards koyo

    Extreme view (my view) Martial arts are NOT for everyone. They demand commitment and tenacity that not everyone possesses. It is the dillusion of martial arts so as to attract the largest number that I feel is wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  17. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Koyo,

    Sorry, I missed the 300 joke!!!

    Yeah but you never earned a living from Aikido, Aikido is the way you live. Large clubs are usually about money, once you become professional all sorts of principles fall by the wayside.

    I would rather train at makotokai than anywhere else but I am not a true martial artist and things like my family are more important to me. I have to fit training around my life.

    The Bear.
     
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    He HE HE (evil laugh)

    specialisation is for insects. Heinlein

    I choose to specialise in whatever I am doing at the time. Koyo

    Bring it on Bear .I shall fight in the shade.

    koyo
     
  19. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    ha, ha, ha.
    And I will call the down the fire.

    The Bear.
     
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hmmm... disagree that martial artists are specialists. Rather that all of life becomes martial arts.

    Anyway, sorry to be the burster of bubbles, but... ignoring all accounts of Spartans from the movie 300, at the time not only were the Spartans well trained to fight but they also possessed metal shields and were considered some of the heaviest armored around. Also their weapons were metal and considered to be superior to what the Persians had.

    The Persians used thatchet shields, good against arrows but easily penetrated by the Spartan spears. Persian armor was scale but the scales were no thicker than a playing card, again, Spartan weapons could easily penetrate with the strength and skill of the Spartan.

    More recently in the last few centuries, soldiers have had a hard time charging through a field against cannons and machine guns. So tanks and armored vehicles have done better.

    What exactly does this say about martial arts of today? What it means is we as martial artists train "naked" that's what.
     

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