Martial Art Of Aikido - Training

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by koyo, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Aye, he goes around clubs beating up all the students.

    We were doing a bit of moving step chinese wrestling thingy and he went straight for the kill and the soft bit of my head hit the hard bit of his head (which is all of it).

    I just got rid of that one and then on last wednesday the same happened with another dude, but on the other eye! So I now have a black eye on the opposite one!
     
  2. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    And he is SUCH a gentleman when he visits my club although red hair tends to set him off.

    koyo
     
  3. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    As memory serves I did apologise and enquire as to your well being afterwards. I also remember the odd attempt at judo throws on the poor aging polar bear in the previous rounds, which the bear was not overly anxious to meet again.
    Ever thought of changing your login to panda?

    P.S. you should come along to koyo's seminar on the 11th of this month.

    The Bear.
     
  4. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    LOL. Problem bears can be relocated to the wilderness :yeleyes: Although I could be hatching an evil plan :yeleyes:

    Anyway back on topic. A huge part of my training consisted of offering a target ( a hand or shoulder), waiting to be attacked and then responding to that attack. The strange thing is though. From that training I was some how expected develop the ability to take the initiative and produce a more positive technique where I would take the initiative.

    As you might imagine most students struggled with this as they simply couldn't join up the dots and moving backwards when confronted quickly became instinct. I think students also prefer these techniques because they are less likely to get hit. And I do get the impression a lot of people take up Aikido because they are looking for a pain free martial arts experience.

    I learned to move forward by foolishly trying to hit black belts as hard as I could. They were black belts after all. Fair game I say :yeleyes: I also tended to favour the more positive forms of tenchi nage as well. Most because I got to hit black belts really hard and didn't have to be sneaky about it :yeleyes:

    If I'm honest my first instinct is still to move back out of the way and lead or draw the attacker to me.
     
  5. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Haha, it was cool. Everyone was very nice to me for some reason...

    Panda would be cool, someone in Judo suggested patches since I am on my second black eye in 2 weeks.

    Would love to come, but I am already signed up for a BJJ seminar that runs on the Sunday from 12-3. Hopefully I can get along to one of the next ones if I am welcome, really interested in checking one out.
     
  6. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Hope you beat him like a red headed step child, cause I certainly can't! :D
     
  7. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    The whole counter attack system is interesting. Logically it would make sence to hit your opponent before he gets a chance to hit you, yet this is hardly ever practised, nor even discussed in martial arts classes.
     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Wolfie

    A major principle of martial arts is to assert control in general and over the centreline in particular.Sen timing is used to assert control. Sen means to avoid (or lead) an attack and effect a counter. This shows little control because the attacker has felt free to mount a powerful attack. Sen no sen means to cut through an attack to unbalance. This shows seizing back the initiative. Sen sen no sen means to pre-empt the attack by asserting control.
    Respectfully the training you spoke of in your post is the least effective of the three. This is the reason for my dislike of an overdependancy on ura waza.
    Another major principle demands that the attacker spins,circles or spirals around the aikidoka . Not the opposite. Ura often leads to ura creating a circle in the aikidoka rather than the attacker and is so easily countered.
    The reason many leave aikido is because sooner or later they shall question the effectiveness of their training. Many continue anyway for reasons of their own. It is a great saddness that most of the others leave disillusioned.

    regards koyo
     
  9. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    THis is down to the teacher. Depending on the fighting spirit of the martial artist there are a number of scenarios. Someone approaches to strike and you think what is he going to do and plan a counter.Better he approaches and you do not see a threat you see the openings his approach offers and you attack these.The post on sen timings (my previous post) shall allow you to understand better what I am saying.
    Saddly what you say is true this is rarely taught in many martial arts classes. I think this is down to modern teachers "stopping" when they start teaching instead of continually researching and expanding their experience.

    regards koyo
    If you have any questions that you think I may be able to offer an opinion on please post them on this thread or more importantly any comments you may wish to add.

    makotokai.co.uk (website with map)
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2007
  10. joriki

    joriki New Member

    I think I posted something very similar concept. This sort of idea throw under the topic of mind training. It is the ability to open weakness and draw in attacks or set up weakness in the opponent. Based on the swordmenship. technique on technique counter on counter. I agree it is not tought much any more nor do I see it praticed much.
    However as Koyo points out the key skill is see what is happening clearly and play the mental chess match. It is a skill that requires a lot of dedication to learn. In my view most do not wish to study that hard or long to quite the mind down enough to see and think clearly. this of course in the system I study becomes the aspect of response not recation as we are thinking and seeing the what is unfolding not reacting to it.

    Sometime I think some of my post are difficult to understand as I come from a different view on the subject but it seems (at least to me) that some here are able to express (from a differently view and wording, what I try to express). The above as a good example of an aspect of mind training/state of being training.

    Sorry any mispelling (did not have time to spell and grammer check)

    Again these are only my views on the topic, other people's mileage my vary.
     
  11. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I completely agree. I used to help a lot of students prepare for gradings. And during those training sessions I found it fairly taxing trying to get students to make the switch from moving backwards all the time to actually entering forwards. In many cases it seemed as though it was their first ever lesson in Aikido.

    I don't think I was ever that bad ( I was of course always perfect :p ). But to begin with at least I found getting enough power into the more positive techniques a lot more difficult.
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Not moving backwards? :confused:

    This one has got me confused. Isn't good movement both intuitive and unexpected?

    Should not matter what direction the movement is in, only that it causes the attacker to overextend on one side and collapse (jam) on the other. Leaving them in a chaotic state while you apply control over them.

    And, of course while you are at it, don't get BIT!!!
     
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    If you ever do a seminar on dog fighting I shall be the first to sign up!!! :)

    Hi Rebel

    To be fair to aikiwolfie I think he was responding to my critique of aikidoka who depend almost entirely on defencive techniques never taking the initiative and seizing control.This is called an ura technique which many use almost all of the time. This would be why he would emphasise omote.
    IN my own training I attempt to use omote all of the time using ura only if caught off which does not happen all that often. :Angel:

    regards koyo

    joriki

    I respect your manner and approach to training and would underline that all of my posts are my own personal views and ment for information only. Having said that I have made it a habit of taking ideas expressed on these threads to future training sessions and have learned much from them (not always from aikidoka)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2007
  14. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    That's exactly what I was getting at. Thanks koyo.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah, I see that.

    I was and still am confused by the definition of ura. I thought that it was a principle in Aikido to always exert forward pressure, even when moving in other directions. If I understand, even in ura one is exerting forward pressure.
     
  16. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I think [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1kGq8RonJU]this video[/ame] will illustrate what I mean. Notice how the initial movement on my part is backwards for the majority of the techniques at the start.

    And yes I do know it was a crap performance. :p
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I see what you mean. That was not moving back or out of the way as a result of an "emergency" where you have to move to keep yourself alive, as I envisioned ura techniques to be for.

    Moving back in the manner in the video does tend to invite repeated attacks, sooner or later you will be hit.

    Thanks for sharing. I also want to say that your performance wasn't crap, IMHO. You just appeared to be a bit rigid, but given the when, where, and how ukes attacked you, your technique was good. I feel that the ukes needed to challenge you a bit more, then your performance probably would have appeared better.
     
  18. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I was rigid because I did the entire grading with severe cramp in both legs. But I don't like excuses. See my feet? They're nearly as white as my Gi :p
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That's good to know, context from first hand is very valuable to have when looking at pictures and video for content.

    I hope you don't think I was being critical, I rather enjoyed the video. I liked what I saw, I just would have liked a few of the uke to try to smack you good in the side of the head with their free hand while they were trying to grab you. Then again, maybe I've been hit a few too many times myself and just want others to share in the love. :p
     
  20. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi kiaki

    Ura

    Is a principle used when the attack is so sudden and powerfull that you must open your hip to allow the attack to pass. What your instructors have taught you is NOT an aikido principle. We must never back off from an attack, this only invites more attacks and leaves the maai such that an experienced fighter can deliver more blows.
    You have left this particular group of ki aikido wolfie so forgive me if I say that the instructors have not taught any of the martial arts principles of aikido. Triangular posture, atemi,constant defence of the centreline. I could go on. I am sorry that you have stopped training but I am not sorry that you have stopped receiving such instruction. There is always a welcome for you at the makotokai.
    Below is an example of ura. The kick was too strong and sudden to be delt with by omote. I had to open out my right hip to allow the kick to pass. Although ura is a turning principle I am still attacking forward.

    My apologies
    regards koyo
     

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