Martial Art Of Aikido - Training

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by koyo, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Rebel

    See photograph of O Sensei post 1 on this thread triangular posture, make the opponent reach and atemi. They are all there. Since you seam to like "first principle" do not get hit our next principle is REMEMBER THE FIRST followed closely with align the body. This would mean slipping to a side kuzushi in triangular posture to unbalance the attacker as he was reaching (sen no sen) and to assert control over the maai if it were a grab his grip would be weak if it were a strike it can be intercepted.Saddly training has become a "habit" for some and the sense of danger can be missing in training as you say. That is another reason for these posts and your input as always makes them interesting.

    Regards koyo

    Two handed grab left elbow cut down right elbow cut up deep entry and attack on kuzushi (yup it is Chris AGAIN!!) Big Derek is moving out of the line of fire.
     

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  2. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    Yes, we train to deal with the attack long before uke has a chance to grab you, in freestyle or any applied SD useage. However, we also train from a static start as this relies on Tori to take total control both of his own energy and that of Uke. IMHO 'timing' in this includes the use of feints and surprise; taking balance/creating movement may also make use of pain - atemi or pressure point or a fast entry directly into a lock.

    In a static collar grasp (Eri Mochi Kote Gaeshi?), allowing the grasp places their hand firmly in your control. If grabbed with the right hand, my favourite is to draw them back (left step back) onto my right atemi, simultaneously come under their right arm with my left hand and take their right hand in my left in sankajo grip. The atemi then having started their backward motion, duck quickly under their right arm and crank on sankajo while they still have hold. This makes them move - anywhere you want; and you have given them no energy except a smash in the face.

    In the case of Nikajo, this can also be applied immediately you have atemi'd. IMHO speed and posture dictate success most. As long as you body is aligned so that his hand is in your own centre line and, preferably, within his own shoulder width, is even possible to apply this technique one-handed or against an almost straight arm.

    Aikiwolfie: Here's a hapkido master showing a variety of moves, many from 'static' starts, for example kote gaeshi from ushiro. (Useful when police are applying the cuffs? :) ) :

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yZihj8Fi98"]YouTube[/ame]

    Incidentally, the speed and timing give the power, not strength. His techs are very similar to the training we use in Shudokan - hard and fast. But remember this is a demo so a few look somewhat contrived. Uke's look like they know how much pain is coming their way, though! .

    Aikiwolfie, I want to know how you can apply kote gaeshi at a snail's pace, as I thought it relied heavily on either making the attacker relax his grip (atemi etc) or by the surprise of a suddent switch in direction (after they have made their thrust, for example, turning one way, then reversing). Surely if this is done slowly, there is time for the attacker to feel it and tense the wrist/move the arm to resist or even turn your efforts against you with a counter-technique. (For example, in the traditional form, having led Uke round, at the point when you reverse direction you are open to atemi and counters from his other hand if you are slow to 'crack' it on (must stop saying that! :) )..
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2006
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Kiaiki

    I loved the old master's demo and the use of his shoulder in sankyo tenchi nage and the atemi that you could hardly see. Excellent. I also liked the sweeps and throws from the kicks.The idiot with the chimp should be shot for insulting such a wonderful art!!


    Koyo
     
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I am not worthy kiaiki.

    Ever since my training in FMA and BJJ, I have understood the importance of being capable of applying technique at a slow speed against an resisting opponent. At the slower speeds one cannot use strength and speed to compensate for bad technique, so technique must be good.

    I've already mentioned my dislike of kote gaeshi, this actually stems from my difficulty in applying it at slow speeds against a resisting opponent. I actually came up with a way I could apply kote gaeshi reliably at slow speeds against resistance and taught it to a few students but I thought it so unorthodox that I stopped teaching it to others and questioned why I could not apply kote gaeshi reliably the way others do it.

    The method was to apply elbow control and hip penetration first. So I would bring uke's elbow to my hip and that gave me a means to straighten uke's arm almost like I was applying Ikkyo (unbendable arm) to them with the elbow to the side or even better a bit pointing upwards. This created the movement and position from which I could apply kote gaeshi reliably.

    So I look at the video you linked to ( [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yZihj8Fi98"]YouTube[/ame] ) and at the 5:51 minute mark there was MY TECHNIQUE. Well actually I'm not worthy, there is the technique I thought only I ever did, my own invention, the one I thought I only did because my kote gaeshi is not as good as everyone elses. Well my kote gaeshi still needs work but at least I can go back to what works for me and build on that. I'm thinking there is something to the position of the elbow and the extension of the arm before applying kote gaeshi. The uke that counters me and rolls out of it manages to bend his arm quickly and move his elbow fairly freely during the counter.

    Another, I'm not worthy. I noticed when my kote gaeshi fails I end up in a position close to shihonage or a key lock (their wrist bent forward)... I try to force kote gaeshi but I just realized I could just use something like shihonage instead since it is already "given" to me.

    Thanks, humble regards :love:
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2006
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Missed this post. Another I'm not worthy moment. I was taught the importance of the shoulder to keep control of the elbow and restrict the uke's range of motion. I came up with a way to apply sankyo to a person much taller than me. (A much taller and stronger person could escape sankyo normally by lifting their elbow high into the air... lifting tori on his toes or off the ground, and then slamming tori into something like a table, wall, or the ground.)

    I trap their elbow between my shoulder and the side of my head, then I apply sankyo. Uke's hand is kept near the level of my stomach in front of my center just off to the side. By resticting the elbow's range of motion, uke has less room to counter from.

    I was afraid to teach this to others as it seemed so unorthodox. I should at least show it to them, let them experience it and see if it works for them.

    Edit: in regards to sankyo tenchi nage and the "hidden" atemi, I find that those "in the know" can see things that others will miss. I think this one thing to be very true of video, pictures, and even somewhat also true when first hand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2006
  6. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    Another Sankajo from a grasp:
    Uke is in front of you and grabs your left arm just above the crook of your elbow (as some idiots do on the street to push you, fingers on the outside of your arm, thumb inside). Bend your arm and trap his hand in the crook of your elbow. Turn your palm to face you then tenkan rapidly clockwise and drop your posture. Obviously atemi if necessary.

    If he grabs both arms this is a real killer - for the attacker. Trap both his hands, turn your palms inwards as before then step backwards while dropping your posture - do not bend over.

    I was shown this by a Shorinji Kempo senior instructor and it hurts like hell, believe me!! :)

    I STILL don't know how kote gaeshi can be applied at a snail's pace - I've never seen it except to demonstrate to a beginner, never as something which should work as applied technique. Any ideas?
    Without atemi or a sudden application, I'm lost - surely slow means lots of openings for counters and resistance with this particular technique?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2006
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Sounds like a badass sankyo but the best I ever seen is in Kurosawa's Red Beard starring Toshiro Mifune.He grinds one on to his attacker and has him flapping his free hand in the air and mifune catches it in another sankyo. So he is positioned behind this guy with a double sankyo on him the guy is right up on his toes,
    AND THEN HE THRUST KICKS HIM IN THE SPINE

    OOOOUCH!!!koyo

    My hero Mifune
     

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  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Another good application of sankyo is applied when attacked by the right hand we enter to the attackers left side and attack his face if he defends with an open hand sankyo can be cracked on really quickly and they usually run on to it making it more effective.I did this once and just before I threw him I said IT'S ONLY LOCK AND ROLL BUT I LIKE IT!!! They don't call me sensei humour for nothing!!! :)

    koyo

    Here is the entry isn't his left hand just begging for a good sankyo?
     

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  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    It's only Lock and Roll, but I like it

    - gah that's bad :love:

    I once hit someone during a technique in the funny bone, their arm went dead and they thought I did it on purpose as part of the technique :cool:

    It was a funny situation, not too far off humerus. ;)

    I can do this if I have good hip penetration (I'm in deep enough on uke that their elbow can be braced against my body). I think the key is that even if tori (me) goes slow, uke on the other hand is compelled to go fast providing all the dynamics needed.

    I have gone slowly putting uke into Ikkyo tenkan, but as they fall forward, reverse my direction into kote gaeshi kept very tightly as in tenshin.

    This seems to work because uke is moving quickly as a result of the initial Ikkyo.

    Hope I explained this well.
     
  10. Mr Punch

    Mr Punch Homicidal puppet

    Thanks Koyo. The concept I was aware of but I hadn't heard the term before... or maybe I did a couple of years ago when I was more active in kendo and less active in Japanese!

    To me it's one of the basics of aiki in its sense of being the point where both opponents are on equal footing (the kissaki crossing) and having to disrupt that before any tech can start. It's a fundamental difference between the old aikijutsu interpretation of aiki (as in something to be disrupted) and the modern aikido fluffy interpretation of aiki (as in a state of harmony to be achieved).

    On a note of perhaps more personal discovery, this kensen idea is fundamental to kendo and other fight sports too (I have used it in shooto too): sometimes you need to relax the centre control to provide a gap, to sucker the opponent in. And so, control of the centre to me does not mean constantly threatening or applying pressure, but sometimes the exact opposite.

    Works very nicely with the centreline principles of wing chun too.
     
  11. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Right with you there Mr Punch. Aiki wo hazu is a term used in budo which means AVOID aiki. If you are "harmonising" with an attacker he can easily "catch that feeling" and counter you. In aikido techniques we must "break" our partners balance "disrupt" his timing Be too close or too far away for his distancing to be effective.
    As for control again am right there with you you can control an attacker by letting him believe there is an opening to draw him in.When asked to describe harmony technically O Sensei ueshiba said in aikido techniques harmony means to have the ability to cause you attacker to move where and when to your dictates.I agree that much of what passes for aikido technique today has lost it's martial effectiveness. We must have the ability to execute technique fron beginning to end without leaving any openings.This was one reason for starting these threads.Your definition of ken sen is more astute my thanks.
    My thanks for your post and I look forward to any others.

    welcome and regards

    Koyo
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2006
  12. Mr Punch

    Mr Punch Homicidal puppet

    合気を外れる, maybe? That's 'hazureru', I don't know a 'hazu'... may be older Japanese.

    Sure. And without getting too philosophical about it, I don't want to harmonize with my attacker since his aim is mess up my day! I want to restore harmony to the world in general which may mean to mess up his day!

    I think aiki-bunnies often confuse two concepts here: the 'ai' in 'aiki' is not the same as the 'awaseru' or 'awase' which can be translated 'harmonize' but would more sensibly be translated as 'blend'. Well, how do you harmonize with a fast-retreating jab? You don't. But you can blend with it, if you parry (as in not directly blocking it) and occupy your opponent's centre.

    Precisely.

    Or maybe having the control to dictate your openings.

    Cheers,

    Later.
     
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Mr Punch

    Agreed on all points

    When teaching awase Saito shihan (the father)would stress cut him before he makes kime, intercept the strike, overstreach him, close him down. Always stressing blending rather than "harmonising".


    Koyo

    SANKYO OOOOCH PART2 (just before the kick)
     

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  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Following on from our first principle of do not get hit we concentrate on body alignment relative to the intent or the attack.perhaps more so than in other arts we depend upon mobility and body alignment to avoid attacks or enter in on them more so than dependance on blocking. The principle that attack and defence are one demands that AS WE ALIGN THE BODY to escape and enter to a kuzushi we are at the same instant mounting an attack on the opponent. Often I see novices avoiding an attack AND THEN aligning their body to a kuzushi AND THEN attempting to execute a technique.Techniques must be instantaneously effective, as kiaki said, washing over the opponent.Using henka waza continuous techniques. Example entering dynamically and executing ikkyo an a defending arm only to sense resistance and immediately moving in deepr past the elbow to execute tenchi or irrimi nage.
    Thoughts?
    Koyo
    Escape and attack as one.Bottom right of picture entry and atemi (photo by martin)
     

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    Last edited: Aug 13, 2006
  15. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Same entry opposite side different maai short sword against katana, Two kendo masters from last years IKET

    koyo
     

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  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Kajukenbo principles: BLT with Garnish. A Kajukenbo Sigung told me this and I like it. Yes it is a sandwich... I'm getting hungry, yummm... oh wait not a sandwich...

    B = Block (don't get hit, attack back). This is less evasion but more block and stun together, the old karate, a block can be a strike and a strike can be a block. There is footwork to get off the line of attack, but with that it is combined with attack against the enemy to stun them.

    L = Lock (technique). This is the follow-up technique providing unrelenting attack and pressure upon the enemy. Usually it is a combination of atemi with locking techniques.

    T = Takedown (completion of technique). Down them hard so they don't get back up.

    and the garnish is G = Ground (ground attack).

    Most all Kajukenbo core techniques follow the BLT w/G recipe although some schools don't put as much garnish on.

    I believe it is easy to get ahead of ourselves. You mentioned yourself more or less that to train above your level is the worst thing an Aikidoka can do. Avoiding an attack, and aligning the body to a kuzushi and executing a technique can all be seemingly separate tasks. It is not until later that they can be combined in a fluid manner, this can take a very long time to develop. The more complex the movements the longer it can take to learn.

    Attempting to combine them early on requires some simplicity and motivation. Boxing is not simple to be good at, but it is not overly complex to learn the basics... and a great motivator is that you get hit back, instant feedback to protect yourself.

    I use the term fluidity instead of flow when I describe to others what I believe is the indicator of mastery of effective technique. I don't use flow because to me flow can mean one direction and one timing, but fluidity has the properties of flow but is not restricted to one direction or speed, but comforms to the shape and context of the situation, quite the opposite of flow in that it has broken path and broken timing... yet it is all flows together.

    What we learn is technique and movements but what we must develop with this is transitions. It is in these transitions that we "leave ourselves open" and vulnerable. Breaking points where we are not in control of the situation.

    One can have the worst technique but still mount a successful attack if they are unrelenting, giving no transitions from which the enemy can exploit.

    To deal against an unrelenting attacker to me in one of the bests tests for anyone but perhaps something of even more value to beginners... An attacker comes, maybe not full speed and power but to some lesser level but they attack continously, without break, no one step, just attack, attack, attack... the defender must sense the weaknesses in the transitions and respond to them. If they do nothing but evade they will never be able to attack, they must sense the opening in the enemy and attack it while defending themselves.

    If such exercises are practiced, I feel all students (everyone) can benefit... if not, I feel that something is being missed. IMHO.

    Great example and technique. I would say, on my part, that I have found that the point of "only to sense resistance" is so impossible a thing that it cannot be felt or when resistance is felt, it is already too late to make a good transition.

    It comes down to actually good body mechanics and technique. I don't know if people will agree with me, but to throw off the timing of my opponent, I half-commit to something before changing the angle and timing of my attack. Half don't mean half the distance, but half of my commitment, which may not be half the distance, could be more, could be less.

    To illustrate this for example, if someone were to take right hand and attempt to push me on my right shoulder (don't ask me why they would do this but assume I either redirected them or something). Anyway, the instant as they first touch my right shoulder, I do not push back, but I make it seem as though I am pushing back. How I do this is to bend my knees (drop my weight) and roll my shoulder forward (align my body). This is what I would do if I were to try to push somone with my right shoulder. However, I am not pushing at all, I am just aligning my body in a set up as if my next movement is to push back.

    The key here is that although I do not feel that I am pushing back, my opponent feels resistance as if I am pushing back. What I really am doing is absorbing their push allowing them to push longer and become more committed in their attack.

    Since I never actually pushed back, it is of little effort for me to turn (blend) with the push and my opponent goes flying passed me, allowing for me to down them in that direction or apply kote gaeshi or irimi nage in the other direction.

    If I had actually pushed back with full commitment, it would have been too late for me to blend with the attack.

    I hope I'm making sense here. Comments welcome.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2006
  17. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    One can have the worst technique etc.. In martial arts it is said that even if the technique is unsophisticated THE SUPERIOR ATTITUDE WILL PREVAIL

    Quick post I am off to a guitar session.


    Koyo
     
  18. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I've seen that clip a few times and I can't say I'm terribly impressed by it. But only because the uke seemed to be play acting just a bit too much.

    Kote gaeshi to me has always been an imobalisation and not a throw. As such the kote gaeshi has been succesfully applied when you have control of uke through their arm and not when uke is thrown. As uke is supposed to be under control uke shouldn't be able to enter to strike.

    When I apply kote gaeshi it doesn't rely on any surprises or any sudden revers in direction. Instead I take up the slack in ukes arm by manipulating ukes wrist in much the same way as I would for Nikkyo. The only difference being the technique is now reversed.

    The kote gaeshi is applied with the wrist closest to uke. So if I use my left hand, I'm holding ukes right wrist. In this posture, which is actually where you end up from the traditional twirly version, uke should not be in strikeing range. In fact all the twirly bit does is give nage more time to get into position.

    To put uke on the floor we continue applying pressure and direct ukes elbow to the ground. This should make uke sit down. If we want to throw uke we should add a turn of the hips ask we direct ukes elbow to the floor. If needed the other hand can be brought in to direct ukes fingers to their elbow.

    I'm not sure what you mean be "relax his grip". If uke has a hold of your wrist as he might from a static start then I would escape by turning my wrist so that the thin edge is aligned with the gap between ukes thumb and fingers. I would also place my free hand on ukes wrist with my pinky resting in the notch between the thumb and the wrist. This momumterally stops uke from following my hand as I free it from ukes grip. At no point does uke have to relax their grip for me to free my hand. The hand resting on ukes wrist would then become the hand that applies kote gaeshi as I would not want to lose contact with uke once it has been established. Unless of course I have been forced to reverse my posture. I.e. uke held my left hand with his right hand. I would then have to reverse my posture again and swap hands. From that position my thumb simpley closes on ukes middle knuckle and my pinky closes around ukes wrist. It is then a case of turning ukes wrist back towards him to apply the kote gaeshi. I should now be back to the position I explained above with uke immobalised but not yet thrown.
     
  19. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Rebel

    The principle you talk of sounds like the awase for uke otoshi a judo and aikido technique. Kyuzo Mifune some say the finest Judoka ever was a master of this technique. He would "press in " on someone just long enough for them to push back and with perfect timing he would step back into the kuzushi and "float" his attacker to the mat.I have shown a rare film of him to many aikidoka and each has said that they could see a mastery of aikido principles in his techniques.

    Regards koyo

    The late great Kyuzo Mifune
     

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  20. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Aiki wolfie

    The way you are explaining kote gaeshe I would not be surprised that if you look at it again you are actually controling his hip. This is what stops him from following the technique around.As you say it feels more like an imobilisation than a throw. I was told that you have not understood aikido until every throw is a pin and every pin is a throw. I looked at this and found it to be true.
    Example executing YONKYO rather than cutting the elbow below the wrist then thrusting to the mat . The elbow is cut like a sword at the attacker's head causing him to spin away the shomen cut continues to chudan then we go to suwari and throw the attacker.
    Thoughts?


    Regards koyo

    Although the throw has been completed I think the hip and hand position are quite clear. Derek is taking a RATHER HEAVY BREAKFALL!!
     

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    Last edited: Aug 14, 2006

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