Martial Art Of Aikido - Training

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by koyo, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hello Mr Punch and welcome

    I am sure you would have much to contribute. In the meantime here is the kanji you requested. Ken Sen it is important to constantly threaten the enemie's centreline with the kisaki (tip) of the sword so as to assert control in general and over the centreline in particular.

    Regards koyo
     

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  2. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Rebel

    Had a look at resistance to kote gaeshe , rather than continue with the technique entered deeper behind kept control of the wrist and struck upwards from beneath the elbow and attacked the throat to execute this ara waza. By the way Chris sends his regards!!! He was the uke I sprung it on.



    REgards koyo
     

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    Last edited: Aug 9, 2006
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    My regards to Chris :)

    That technique is something like an iriminage I figure. Very nice variation.

    I think I figured out that my kotegaeshi needs work. I'm not breaking uke's posture soon enough, adding an atemi is helping. Plus I am mixing up techniques. If one could imagine after I grasp the hand with thumb at the base of the ring and little finger and turn, I atemi with a hammerfist to the bicep of uke. :confused: Well this is not the atemi for kotegaeshi but one used to deaden the arm for a different entry. From reviewing my technique and what you have told me, it appears that the correct atemi would be more of a straight attack to the centerline (e.g. a palm under the chin or a vertical fist to the face of uke).

    I believe the hammerfist atemi to the bicep was causing me to over rotate at the shoulders, using up my range of motion in that direction. The centerline straight attack kept me in a stronger position for kotegaeshi.
     
  4. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    With kote gaeshe I have always followed the rule that it will not work unless it is a total surprise - atemi can guide that surprise element. Lead the mind and body of Uke all you like, but crack it on fast and close to your body for maximum effect.

    Uke in a dojo knows what is coming. I have disarmed a street attacker with kote gaeshe. My rule of 'smack and crack' (atemi then technique) has yet to fail me. :)

    Koyo - 'Control of your own and the attacker's centre' should be a definition of Aikido. Failure usually results from its absence. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2006
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Good advice.
     
  6. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    The appearance of an enemy should be thought of as an opportunity to test the sincerity of one's mental and physical training , to see if one is responding to the divine will.When facing the realm of life or death in the form of the enemy's sword,
    one must be firmly settled in mind and body, and not be atall intimidated. Without leaving your enemy the slightest opening control his spirit in a flash and move where you will, straight, diagonally or any other appropriate direction. Enter deeply mentally as well as physically , transform your whole body into a true sword and vanquish your foe.
    Sounds like something Minamoto Musashi might have written. In fact it was written by O Sensei Ueshiba while in his eighties.
    Aiki wolfie
    I just thought it was a bit more poetic than smack and crack.


    Koyo

    Rare photograph of O Sensei a gift from Sekiya shihan
     

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  7. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    In the dojo I have used phrases like 'smack and crack' or 'pain leads brain' as a jolly and concise way of driving a point home. However, my attitude to Aikido does not vary whether I'm in the dojo or out on the street. A 'do' is a 'way' not a gym exercise.

    O Sensei also emphasised developing the spirit of the 'kami' within and the constant efforts needed to battle the internal 'tengu'. His 'misogi' purification and this internal power was what I believe enabled him to seize those openings in the spirit of the attacker whilst leaving no room for others to attack him.

    This is, of course, pretty standard Zen Buddhism and Shinto. Personally, I would find Aikido to be an empty dance without seeing this as integral to it. I'm happy that others are able to practice Aikido with no reference to this side of O Sensei's life and teachings, but personally I cannot see Aikido other than holistically.

    I'm quite ready for others to quote that many of O Sensei's students received no spiritual teaching at all, but of course they would not have needed it. Their MA was already being taught within a cultural context. Ours is not. I wonder how many students bow to the kamiza and have no idea why? They are the ones who really deserve to have the Kanji for '**** hole' placed on them when they go for a he-man tattoo!

    I am totally enthusiastic about the application of ancient techniques to modern life, weapons and self defence, but I do believe that this should rise out of a context whereby the art of Aikido is not seen only as a 'smack and crack' fighting art or, worse still, a sport. How's that for a bit of controversy? :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2006
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    :love: CONTROVERY YOU WANT CONTROVERSY???
    The very act of performing aikido techniques is the physical manifestation of the philosophy if one dose not realise this he is not performing aikido he is simply indulging his baser nature.
    Chiba,Deshimaru, Nakazono,Abe and Sekiya shihans all taught this.

    Regards

    koyo

    Omoto kyo??
    coming up
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2006
  9. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    Last edited: Aug 10, 2006
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    WOW!! point taken kiaiki.I was told that there was no need to "adopt" a philosophy for my aikido training (reason given in my previous post) but that I SHOULD seek examples in aikido shihan and others and follow those that I respected and to a man I found them to be absolute gentlemen with deep beliefs of their own. I was also told not to adopt the beliefs of others and come to my own beliefs through sincere training.I was also told NOT to belittle the beliefs of others if I truly did not first of all try to understand them.


    Koyo
     
  11. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Attitude To Training
    As I said I have often chosen to use a particular shihan as an example of someone I admired and respected. Sekiya shihan was one among many. I learned many valuable lessons from him. One being that I should seek out personal knowledge, insight and revelation. Knowledgs given by Sekiya shihan would not be questioned (by me) BUT I HAD to question my understanding of that knowledge on the mat then it became personal knowledge rather than second hand. This then gave me an insight into other areas and then after many years of experience I hope some revelation into the art of aikido.
    When asked what is the most important element that I could bring to aikido I was told SINCERITY and a receptive mind.
    Regards koyo

    SEKIYA SHIHAN
     

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  12. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    Good advice. I take my time choosing any instructor or religious 'guru' to follow. A good beginning is an examination of what they have said and done. I also rate my chances of learning something authentic to be better if the guy has a good lineage. I can then also examine what his masters have said and done as well. I am prepared to respect and admire, to improve myself accordingly, but never to worship - anyone!

    I am then doubly careful only to pass on what I believe and am prepared to defend.

    A guru recently told this story to a self-important student who asked an annoying and impertinent question, seeking praise for his cleverness:

    "A bull was grazing in a dry Indian meadow and strayed into the forest, led there by the lush grass which grew there. Over time, he became fat and slow. A young and fit lion found the fat bull, killed him easily and ate him. Proud of his feast he roared his conquest to the whole forest, boasting about his achievement, which had really been very easy.

    A hunter was passing by and on hearing the lion's boastful roar, found him easily and shot him dead - an easy task."

    The moral? : "Don't open your mouth if you're full of bull!" :)
     
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Good one kiaki I am just about to set off to training but I thought you might like to know that Phong Thong Dang and Lynn Seister have just published an excellent book entitled Advanced aikido published by Tuttle. It is well worth checking out,

    Regards koyo
     

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    Last edited: Aug 10, 2006
  14. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I would agree and I think it's a lot more useful.

    The problem I have here is smack and crack in my experience generally refers to the order of events. You smack on a technique fairly hard and uke cracks you one on the head. The more physical effort you put into a technique, the more uke has to play with and react to.

    Kote gaeshi works because it has been applied properly. Not because it was a surprise or because it was applied with bucks of spirit. I don't want to offend anybody but if you find kote gaeshi only works as a surprise technique then in my opinion you're doing something very wrong and uke needs to be paying more attention. It's one of those techniques that can honestly be applied at a snails pace without uke having to fake anything.

    Do you find the same thing happens when you apply nikkyo?

    I'm also not sure why anybody would want uke to have a dead arm for any technique. Aikido techniques utilise the push uke gives you when they attack. If ukes arm is dead (and presumabley limp) how then does uke continue their push?

    Inccidently I'm not trying to lecture anybody here. Just a little confused :confused:
     
  15. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    I'll elaborate - briefly, as I'm off to train! (Yoga this time :))
    The 'smack' is atemi, required to make an attacker compliant to the technique IMHO.
    The 'crack' is the way Yoshinkan techs are applied - fast and hard. And as a uke you'd better move damn quick or be damaged. It's not a matter of strength, it's a matter of skill and timing.
    (The Youtube footage of Shioda shows this in practice as he whacks on techs hard and fast, even before uke gets up.)

    The 'street' use of the tech was against a screwdriver thrust. Mesubushi to the face and crack on the lock as he went back. No need for a huge circular leading around and reversal of direction as I created his backward movement and thus the space to apply a technique - one of the first principles we learn. I should explain Yoshinkan begins by 'overwhelming' an opponent as a starting principle. I don't have to wait for his attack, I can make him move anyway. No limp arms anywhere.

    As for uke's energy - well, no I actually think that you've described two techs that do not necessarily need that. I know the traditional twirly stuff, with an attacking uke who gives you the energy you need out of courtesy, but training can also involve making a tech work when uke is static. For example, a collar grasp. The instant it is held, we move and uke has no choice but to follow. We strike into his face instantly with a backfist - a hard metsubushi, and apply Nikajo. If he is moving forwards or backwards, it still works, as long is it is applied along your own centre line, even with his arm almost straight. Try it!

    Without atemi, he is still gripping our collar strongly. How do you escape if not with a 'crack' of atemi ? As you say, as strong grip is the starting point for this, so why would he loosen it with no atemi?

    Of course we don't treat beginners like this! (Well, not all of them :))

    Incidentally, on the Oomoto question, the "Aikido, Aikijitsu ???" thread is following this direction also. :)
     
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Oh what have I done... Kote gaeshi :p I will say that I am biased, Kote gaeshi happens to be one of my least favorite techniques but that is besides the point.

    Now let me chime in here a bit. An instructor of mine that has over thirty years of training in Tai Chi was able to place me in Kote gaeshi directly off of my punch. I would punch and I was instantly put into Kote gaeshi using the force of my punch and his redirection and technique. Of course he knew what I was doing (e.g. punching) and he presented me with his face as a target which he had framed with his hands so when his head moved out of the way my punch was nicely framed where he was not anymore.

    Stealing this experience, I was able to repeat this same thing with a few students. Both off of them punching and off of them pushing me. :cool:

    Now some students it did not work on. One of these students was the same student that I failed to apply Kote gaeshi on when he resisted. This same student, by the way, drops like a sack of potatoes with Sankyo.

    My point being that I was not talking about opponents from which techniques can be applied easily on, but I was talking about opponents that have some natural resistance or counter to certain techniques... the use of PROPER atemi comes into play to stack the odds more in my favor and to discourage them from mounting an effective counter.
     
  17. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Exactly what have you done :p Go write out one thousand times over. "I must not ever open a can of worms". Then go and eat one thousand worms :p

    Thanks for the clarfication. I'll go think about it a bit more.
     
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi aiki wolfie

    Your comment of less physical effort reminds me of being thrown while attacking very powerfully, so smoothly that I could not even identify the technique. I thought at the time if I had not had excellent ukemi skills (honesty over modesty) That smooth almost effortless technique would have done for me.


    Regards

    koyo
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Those things FREAK me out. I've been pounded on and slammed, but much worse I have also felt emptiness with complete helplessness! Each time I see my death I am reminded of our mortality and I question my own courage. It takes something on the inside to keep going, maybe I could say it takes faith (spirtuality).
     
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I learned of a story tonight from one of the Kajukenbo Professors. He told me of someone that had been working a basic technique against a two handed lapel grab. I will paraphrase the story to align it with this discussion.

    The technique worked against a two handed lapel grab. The tori however waited until the grab was applied before using the technique to strike the arms of uke and then attack the neck of uke.

    New uke said basically not to wait but evade the attack (more specifics later). The new uke came in for the grab but instead struck tori with double chops and then grabbed the flesh around the front of the armpits. Tori was lifted and unable to defend to this attack, and was thrown about.

    This story I believe is over thirty years old and tori and uke were not Aikidoka but were high level instructors in the kenpo system.

    I was told that many of these techniques had common roots and only did they separate once schools started to specialize. So this "lapel grab" coming in with double chops and grabbing the flesh is just as valid for Aikido as other martial art systems.

    Specifically don't wait for the grab, EVADE the grab (don't get hit, sound familiar). Align the body so one arm of uke is extended (reaching) and the other is intercepted, then apply the technique.

    The Professor also showed me a technique in Kajukenbo and Tai Chi and how they are done differently today but that they were the same to start with.

    I can see much of this in Aikido also compared to other martial systems. The same principles from the roots, but thoughout the generations things have changed and some changes have lost these principles and that isn't a good thing in many cases.
     

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