Let us define "Ninjutsu"

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by eclectic, Jun 4, 2016.

  1. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    More likely than you think...standard training and impartation of knowledge is more of a 20th century thing. While standardised systems of imparting education did exist - European stonemasons and the guild system being quite an unusual example, I have yet to come across one for espionage or none have survived. In Europe this is quite glaring considering the mania for codifying everything especially since the emergence of the printing press. I think that certainly in Europe 'able' people were selected. The French s
    'secret du roi" had an extensive network, but were all private individuals who were good at inveiglibg themselves in court. Wellington selected certain individuals for his exploratory officers who were good horsemen, sketchers, and could speak Spanish and were taught codes - but there was no training system set aside fir them
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Have there been training manuals from medieval guilds that have survived?
     
  3. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    Medieval - I don't think so, but I seem to remember reading that by the 15th/16th centuary there was a concerted effort by German stonemasons to codify the existing guild system practices so that journeymen used the same terminology when working on projects often very far from where they first learnt their apprenticeship. Clearly when you have workers pitching up a cathedral comprising different languages imparting knowledge correctly was fundamental

    That the education was standardised throughout europe would be absurd, rather that the craft of stonemasonry was similar enough that a journeyman from Italy could work on a project in Holland, and if he had the prerequisite accreditation and his experience as s journeyman imparted too him the similar rules of thumb used throughout Europe. That being said differences of opinion did arise, particularly between the French and the lombards, the former insisting on standard practices based on knowledge (scientia) while the latter insisting on direct experience or the art (ars)

    This has probably little in common with ninjutsu. I'm not even convinced that ninjutsu was a master apprentice system how we in the west view it, rather that the tools and techniques were codified, with significant similarities that would make other practitioners recognise the art, even if they were from different areas of Japan. It certainly seems as if the prefectures of Iga and Koga recognised it as s separate art they both shared, despite their differences of approach.
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What about groups like the fida'i of the Nizari Ismailis? Not much left of their records after the Mongols overwhelmed them, but presumably they had some kind of body of knowledge passed down from senior to junior acolytes?

    I just feel that a lack of written record of espionage does not necessarily suggest a lack of training in those who engaged in it. Not at all times across all places, but certainly in some places outside of Japan. The fact that there are many public crafts for which we have no written methodological record of transmission would suggest to me that the same for a highly secretive craft would be unlikely to survive, or ever existed. Isn't it the case that the earlier fighting manuals of Europe were for a minority of people who were doing the fighting , and so presumably there were transmission of techniques of warfare that have been lost in the mists of time?
     
  5. garth

    garth Valued Member

    botta Dritta posted

    The sword is in the Hiken section (Hiken=Secret Sword) as is the Jutte and Tessen.
     
  6. garth

    garth Valued Member

    double post
     
  7. BrendanCassidy

    BrendanCassidy Valued Member

    Constant Greed is an Ally in these coming times..which is a mechanism..for desire to create...to have something to form something indeed..is the ritual logic true...about a Drow indeed...is always about creation...which is in ever abstract ways and art is a formal artitude...in and out of the Sunday Bandwagon...indeed as a Gain or evil is in everything we do..indeed as a ritual is the careless...care giver...a ruach of a pin of desire...or the frequent...leans of else where is a careless giver...indeed is a ratio to the shock of time..indeed as a sherlocke I have been around fabulous gay meny times and when the writing gets like this...it is time to offend...Aleister Crowley...indeed as a ritual indeed as a grey ice, capade...Ice Capade...Capal chapel hill...indeed as a Glory to the Bonums itself..the matrix of connection indeed is the real world true...if you care not for the other people...they will never have a concern for you either...indeed jainism is like this...in the last bonus..is a bonsai tree...which is good in vernal glory...and in short taking and art...is a taboo about a wand...which is a magical item in itself...on the shelf..or with shelf refresh rate...indeed as a wand of vinegar...indeed is the reality made to the degree itself...about the release of the temple which is in Heaven and Earth which is the greatest disgrace of time...which is a release into Gay porno...and therefore you have a net...or a sack..or a net effect...and that is the poison of the netzach...which is the 7th pearl in Kabbalah...and to each in their own...indeed is the
    religious cycle a true Guru...indeed as a relik of a recipe to create more than forbiding words...indeed is the relation gay...at the top is the gray ecsavation...indeed as a world...free from evil...indeed as a gay seed of right and bargain...for the forthwith short hop...cancelled...indeed as an energy gay continuing down this path brings misfortune...and the lyer can never be too hard to tell...which is a gaining sin in itself...and the transformation is necesary but he object location is not...which is why gay porn will be banned in The United States of America...and i Japan..Which is why people are gay anyways..omly because its a thought meme..and people like your reliquarian zen...indeed as a given relik...indeed as a relik is indeed a religious beer or free to the foghorn itself...indeed as a relik is the recipe a desire for the worth of time an avalanche...indeed as a wizard
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2016
  8. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Mod Note: BrendanCassidy, you really need to go click on the Terms of Service found at the top and bottom of your screen before you post again.

    1. This is a family friendly site. The part I edited was not appropriate for this forum.

    2. Your entire post is off topic. This is the Ninjutsu forum and "defining Ninjutsu" is the topic.

    3. You also need to make an effort to use better grammar. No, we are not saying it has to be perfect. but your whole post is one run on sentence and is hard to understand because of this.

    4. Your posts hints like you might be saying anti-Gay things in it. And the only thing saving you from me acting on this right now is that it is frankly so incoherent that I can't be sure. So, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on this. But it did possibly suggest this So be aware that MAP does not tolerate racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance or anything along those lines. Be VERY careful not to say things that could cross that line.

    5. You did all this in the Ninjutsu forum, which is a zero tolerance area. This means the mod team is going to ban members far mor quickly if our TOS is not followed. In addition to this, please follow the additional rules of this particular area.
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118847


    Ok everyone, let's not digress along these lines any further. Let's everyone get back on topic. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Read the rest of his posts. They're all like that. Looks totally incoherent.
     
  10. Fudo-shin

    Fudo-shin Valued Member

    I think a very important point that is sometimes viewed as controversial from a historical documented perspective is the idea that "Taijutsu is Ninjutsu".

    Several have been critical of this idea, but I think if you are in a dojo practicing primarily taijutsu I don't think it would be wrong to say you are practicing Ninjutsu if you go by this definition.

    I think there are some semantics involved but alot of varying opinions on this.
     
  11. MissingNin

    MissingNin New Member

    I requested not to start a debate on beliefs but it happened as I should have expected; is this really a martial arts blog? Seems like the members of this blog only know to force their beliefs on others, not to engage in a respectable manner with other members to increase theirs' and own knowledge. I have very good answers for all the questions that came up in response but this is not a religious blog. It's the same: It's not the eyes that are blind but the hearts. See everything in its entirety, limitless so that you do not remain blind.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think perhaps you should get some spectacles for your own heart.

    You wanted to proselytise without anyone else giving an opinion on the subject, and now you are accusing us of "forcing" our beliefs on others.

    You are the one calling for a one-sided exchange of information, you are the one claiming to be the authoritative font of knowledge, you are the one attempting to shape the debate so it only serves yourself.

    Now you are even saying that you have definitive answers to all these questions, but you refuse to give them to us!

    I think you should deal with your own issues of forcing beliefs, being disrespectful and having a "blind heart" before you go around accusing others of the same.

    Physician, heal thyself.
     
  13. MissingNin

    MissingNin New Member

    What makes it Japanese are the religious and cultural values of Japan and the fact that it was transferred from generation to generation, taught actively as a distinct form of art, just like bujutsu. In other cultures, this seems to be very limited. This is my opinion and this is pretty much what you have said too.

    It is all that which is included in the 18 principles of Togakure ninjutsu.
    He has tried to mix the essence of what he learned in Bujinkan with the modern combat arts so as to make it more useful for modern situations. If he has kept the basic principles the same, then my opinion is that it can be still considered ninjutsu.
    You have got it right. This is pretty much what the Kanji for ninja/shinobi also means and as Hatsumi Soke says, "Peace, Patience, Perseverance", you require three things:
    1. The correct intention (Seishin),
    2. An immovable spirit (Fudoshin),
    3. Shinshin Shingan (God spirit, God eyes)
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    No its not a blog, it's a forum, as such its for logical debate, In the greek/roman tradition.
     
  15. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I don't think that it makes any sense to define ninjutsu by the religious beliefs of Japan

    In my experience the traditions do make use of religious understanding, but that is to deceive people, exploit their superstitious beliefs and prevent ourselves being controlled by dishonest leaders

    There are a lot more mystical beliefs in the Kukishin tradition than Togakure Ryu I think
     
  16. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Botta Dritta posted

    Maybe one reason for that is that Japan took quite a long time to become modernised. They actually shunned anything western for centuries until 1854. Japan was therefore held in a state of almost a quasi medieval world where martial arts and possibly Ninjutsu stayed part of the culture, where of course here in Europe we had given up with battlefield swords and polearms centuries before.

    Maybe if Britain had been in a quasi medieval state of existence up until 1840 we might have a bit more knowledge of how to use a ******* sword, or any medieval methods of intelligence gathering, and possibly there might still be living people who had received said teachings from their grandfather, instead of those teachings being discovered now and again in old libraries for the HEMA enthusiast to try to decipher and understand.
     
  17. pearsquasher

    pearsquasher Valued Member

    Em.. Europeans introduced guns in 1500's I believe - readily adopted and absorbed - bye bye cavalry (Takage Shingen) :woo:
     
  18. MouzalinaMahfud

    MouzalinaMahfud Valued Member

    Cross-posting deleted.
    One place is enough, please. See Terms of Service 4.4.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2016
  19. garth

    garth Valued Member

    They did but unlike in Europe where we went from wheel locks to flint locks to muskets to rifles in the space of a few hundred years and in turn the sword, polearms, armour etc were relegated to a much more minor position until they disapeared altogether, that really never happened in Japan.

    In the edo period the gun really went out of fashion quite a bit. Maybe because in the 1800s the Japanese were still using flintlocks when we were already here in the west using rifles. hense why we still see men dressed in samurai armour with swords.
     
  20. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Relevance to this thread?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2016

Share This Page