Ki in Aikido and Aikijutsu

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by shaolin_hendrix, Jun 29, 2005.

  1. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I can certainly accept great power can be generated with apparently very little movement. But it isn't entirely internal. The movement of your hand to someone's chest is external no matter how subtle you make it. It's a physical act that must by it's nature involve the use of the muscles in the arm. It cannot be done without moving your arm.

    The power Upyu is apparently generating internally cannot be expressed without the aid of and external body movement. And that is really the great stumbling block I have with the concept of power being generated entirely internally. For me the distinction just doesn't exist. The muscles in your arm, move the arm. But they are inside the arm. Under the skin.

    If you're learning to use other muscles in your body in a different way to generate more power. Then that's still no more internal than wiggling your finger.
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    :D

    Not addressing Upyu posts here, but the power comes from connecting your different parts of the body into a whole so that when you strike it is not just with the arm and shoulder, but with the hips and whole body.

    Learning how to do this on a practical level can take a long time of skill development and conditioning.
     
  3. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yes... but to be fair, it appears that Upyu is training with methods that allow the skill and conditioning to be developed more efficiently (in a lesser amount of time). This is of interest to me.

    Another point is that the power generated using the "whole" body must all be applied into a target. I believe that these body skills help someone to learn to not just use their whole body but also to connect to the opponent for efficient transfer of power. For instance when they push on me, I make them "bounce back."
     
  5. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Katachi kamae=attitude of the body Kokoro Kamae =attitude of mind these together is what I understand as kamae any separation weakens the exponent. All of my training has been developing both together perhaps emphasising one or the other at times but NEVER training one or the other alone.Training is always in principle timing ,distancing,kuzushi,decisiveness, body alignment but the common emphasis is always on kamae all of these principles are dependant on proper posture. However even from a relatively early stage we train them under duress.
    This is how I was taught and how I teach. I respect all manner of training. I can only speak with some authority from my own approach and experience.THat being the MARTIAL art of traditional aikido.


    regards koyo
     
  6. joriki

    joriki New Member

    Here is my own view in all this. While Aikiwolfie, Upyu and Koyo all make great comments in general about Ki (many I agree with). One of the oversights was just hit on. Upyu while studing internal development is lacking the "form". A mish mash of learned things does not create a solid method for expresing the princples. Listen to Koyo talk about they very subtle aspect of high level aikido, none of that has been addressed by Upyu. In my view developing internal power is pointless without a seemless methodology of expressing that engery. Like Aikiwolife has stated "they are still tests" not combative methods. Their is a concept Ji and Ri (or Shi and Li) that when reduced is you must have form and priciple. principle without form (this case form is a method of combative strategy - not a mish mash) is empty. Form without principle (call it aiki, call it internal arts, call it hiden, hieho etc) is empty.
    Why AIkido is very great is that it has both form and principle - a huge depth - like an iceberg - only the very top is seen. As good as MMA is or mish mash arts (lets face it some are very good) many dont have the depth of strategy that koryu or koryu derived arts have or some of the traditional CMA.
    My problem here is that the combat view point of many CMA arts are very different then japanese or in our case Aikido. Becouse of that fundamental difference the ways internal engery is expressed will be very different between the two. I would say it would be incorrect to take CMA (like Koyo pointed out in his fashion) and say that it is AIkido type of internal useage. Yes their is overlapping but the methods are very different. I know some are going to say the human body is the human body and their are only so many things that can be done - this is true. However it is HOW it is done the key aspect. The HOW and the WHY defines how Ki is utilized (be in physical princples of stance etc or use of jin or psudeo-spiritual aspects from Osensei or the fighting spirit that koyo talks about).

    Just my view. others are different. your milliage will very.

    (note spell check was not done at this time - as I wanted to post before leaving work)
     
  7. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    Upyu: Watched the vids and I agree with Polar bear they appear very similar to Tai Chi training. One thing this vids were more informative than the pushout one I have to say. Now I appreciate more fully the body conditioning and posture development. Also how this transposes into martial systems the posture you condition your body to take you can see takes on remarkably similar traits to that of the photos of koyo. It is easy to understand why the breathing suddenly becomes more of a problem in developing it as you body is having to be in a compressed state but still mobile throughout. It takes a great deal of control. If it is what you do every class then I can understand why it only takes three months to achieve a good standard in it.

    Folk you have to remember that when training in other martial arts like Aikido we are working on all aspects of the art every class. So if you took Upyu approach you could just take one aspect of the art and train it solid for three months and ignore all others you'dbe pretty good at it but I'm sure it wouldn't be the type of training that got you hooked.

    I can see how these exercises allow him to develop excellent Ki transmission through his posture and breath control necessary to perform that type of exercise. Also the repetition of these exercises demands a strong mental attitude/spirit. These relate to martial systems.

    If you only did this though it would not prepare you for combat on a psychological level and dealing with fear and control of adrenaline and just how different people react to what you do.

    I know some Tai Chi guys who'd get alot from it.


    Teddy Bear
     
  8. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Bear,
    I used to agree with you on the point of this kind of training not preparing you for combat on a psychological level. (If by that you mean sparring; we all know nothing can prepare you for the dr3aded r3al1ty of da str33tz! :D jk ) Anyways, what was interesting to myself, (and shared by others in the class as well) was that even though we don't do any sparring, when we went out to have a bit of a rough and tumble with other groups, we could either handle ourselves, or in some cases (with BJJ guys) hand their asses to them.

    Interesting personal experience of mine...
    So I'd been under Ark for about 2 years, I hadn't had any hard sparring in about 4 years or so (I used to have plenty non-gloved hard contact sanda time in with my polish mantis instructor), and I was matched up with a guy in our class that was a runner up Kyokushin champ in his weightclass here in Tokyo.
    Anyways long story short, when I sparred him and got smacked good in the face, typically you expect to experience one of three things if you haven't had that kind of contact in a long time,
    a) anger (which is better than b or c, lol) = loss of control eventually
    b) fear
    c) the dreaded "freeeeeze"

    None of those happened.
    What was wierd was that my mind was so used to simply directing the intent "inwards" and keeping the body harmonized that getting hit hard enough to see stars didn't really phaze me, and eventually he was the one getting corralled around the ring. Later he said it felt like an impenetrable wall bearing down on him, no matter what he did it kept coming.

    Anyways, so the whole "don't do partner exercises until your foundation is built, and then don't spar until you've absorbed the principle from the partner exercises" theme that's so often laughed at as not being "liVe" actually made sense.

    Of course I'm not saying that doing this stuff will make you into the ult1mate badass and that you can avoid sparring. Far from it, but I do think there is a short cut to avoid developing bad habits that once formed take years to cut.
    So far we've been able to successfully apply it in rough and tumbles with the local mma groups, so I'd say there's merit to this approach.

    And in actuality we do train the entire range that you described...but you'd probably have to experience a class to understand it. Each exercise done both solo and partner works on maai, control, sabaki and all that good stuff. :)
     
  9. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Mainly because I was focusing on the discussion of the physical aspects, but trust me I'm very aware of those concepts ;)

    Sure, and you take the skills demonstrated in the tests and use them in a pressure tested environment like MMA ;)
    Just to clear up any doubt, we definitely have a methedology for expressing that energy ;)
    But if by methedology you mean learning waza, I'd have to disagree with you that learning waza is necessary. A martially developed body will find the right way to deal with a situation.

    Ark(Akuzawa) often talks about instill Rigou or Ri(principle) through Frame (katachi). As Ri develops you start to develop Hou or "Method", but it's different from simply learning waza. As Hou becomes imbued in the body it turns to "Jutsu".

    This I'll actually agree on as well ;)
    Ark focuses less on overall power and more on "muda wo habuku" or getting rid of the excess and making the transmission of energy as simple as possible.
    So the use of the same foundation is going to be different from CMA's fajing, but that doesn't mean that there's CMA out there that don't take a more JMA-ish route at delivering power. I think that's more up to the individual than anything.
    You even see Ueshiba and Shioda doing a lot of "bounce" jin type expressions in his demos, while Tohei it seems didn't do it (as far as vids are concerned).
     
  10. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Last response before I hit the sports center to roll wit some peeps :) :
    Rebel,
    Maybe this'll help shed some light on the power generation I'm talking about, since I think you're misunderstanding a bit (though it is from the whole body).
    The hips don't really come into play as a driving force.
    Think of it this way (and I'm only saying this cuz I saw your vids, and I know that was all done for demo purposes so my view might be skewed).
    Think of the difference between striking/punching, and spearing someone with a well, spear.

    In the first, most people have a concept of "linking" the body together, something like what boxers do; IE twisting the rear ankle, with that twist coming up through the body as you drop, and "pow" the fist comes out.

    The second, it's the legs themselves that power the arms to focus all the weight transfer on the inside of the body at a single point. In execution it looks like the arm just moved, but the strike/motion makes you feel like someone knocked a hole in you. As your arm comes forward, you have an opposite pulling motion from the spine/tailbone pulling you backwards and down. This contradictory force (in training you do it with a bit of relaxed tension), or 6 directional force is what gives these strikes their power. THe body is coordinated as a result. Not as the intent.
    FWIW
     
  11. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    I lied, last post, lol

    Ok...Aikiwolfe maybe you need to think of these things a bit harder.
    The example I gave, the hand is already placed on the guys chest. From that position of not doing something, You don't move perceptibally (granted there's a tiny tiny bit of movement if you watch carefully, but its hard to pinpoint exactly what), and the other person feels off balanced, or in some other more accomplished people they can get bounced away.

    There's more than just muscle that moves your body Wolfe ;)
    Muscles can only contract and relax...fascia on the other hand, you can do a whole bunch of funky stuff with that.
    In fact part of the power generation of Fajing in CMA is highly dependent on the manipulation of the fascia. It's why they say the power comes from the "kidneys". There's no muscle in the kidney, but there's a way to affect the tissue there so that it feels like it comes from there. (Actually you store pressure in those areas and learn to "release" it)
     
  12. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Upyu,
    I have watched all the public vids. I would like to see all you have done.
    My youtube login is MartialPolarBear, someone stole the PolarBear the cheek of them.
    I have a list of comments and questions but I will hold back until I have seen all.

    Cheers,
    The Bear.
     
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    All of the physical elements regarding kamae that upyu presents are there in the similar aikido exercises.Having been thrown by Saito shihan I can attest to this and in my own approach. However the stumbling block for me is that in aikido the exercises are called tai no henko (body alignment) and are ALWAYS executed to a kuzushi. The reason being that while we execute them we must not be vulnerable to any other attack.
    At an advaned level the aikidoka makes use of the principle of complete mobility using minimum movement. Often seaming to hold his ground while using a turn of the hip to throw the attacker.These I would feel would look similar to any throws executed by upyu's group. However again at an advanced level the APPROACH of the attacker offers opening to the aikidoka. The instant of musubi (contact) the attacker is unbalanced at times even before contact and this is executed by judicious body alignment and movement.
    A question on ki.Someone appraches and you think of what attack he may be bringing at worse you becomw tense. Or you see the openings that his approach brings and act upon them instantly. Weak ki versus strong ki???


    koyo

    A line from 300 Leonidus says to the Spartans "Give them nothing but take everything." Excellent martial arts principle.

    Tai no henko
     

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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2007
  14. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Koyo,
    Nice post :)

    Not to nitpick, but Tai no henko I believe is 体の変更 which is "Change of body", referring to the ashisabaki which causes the body to change direction. If I'm totally off base forgive me though^^;

    About your weak ki vs strong ki question, (and we are talking ideals here yes?), if someone approaches me, it doesn't matter what he does. I maintain my natural state/kamae etc for as long as possible, only moving at the last instant. Whatever he does I "nomikomu" or "recieve" what he does. This is mainly because all my intent is not directed at him, but on myself only. I only seek to maintain equilibrium within myself. If he disturbs it in anyway, then at the last moment or "setsuna" you move on a point, taking his balance, his intent, everything. But this happens as a result of seeking to maintain your equilibrium.

    And yes I'd say if he were to approach me, and his "state"/level/whatever you want to call it were weaker than mine then openings are quite apparent. It's one reason you can "corrall" someone around a ring (in a sparring situation). Your kamae has no suki or openings, so they feel they can't get "in" on you to begin with.
    You could call it weak "ki" in a sense.

    Are we crossing wires? Look forward to your response.
     
  15. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi upyu

    I think Leonidus hit it on the head Give them nothing and take everything. The strengths you insist on holding must be denied your attacker.Tai no henko to me also means placement of the body relative to the attacker (addressing a kuzushi).
    There is a principle that states the circles in aikido have no diameter meaning that as we advance in the art the actual body movement is minimal.I would see Saito shihan seam to litteraly "lift" an attacker and throw him with minimum movement other than a turn of the hip so I think I understand (in fact I do) your approach to kamae.

    Some cruel karateka friends once stated that I would have to jump into a puddle twice just to get one splash!!! So you can guess that I am not powerfully built hence my need for ALL of the principles ALL of the time.

    regards koyo
     
  16. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    Upyu: I had a look at your vids some are very interesting, but I think you might find a better audience showing them to the martial orientated Tai Chi guys, it is really similar to what I study in Tai Chi. The whole thing you do will have a real benefit for unarmed combat fighters. The whole point I have with it's relevance to people who study traditional Aikido is that it all comes from weapons work. Our techniques are the same with or without the weapons that is why the whole focus on traditional Aikido doesn't quite fit with your training regime. Koyo might take exception to this but I see him as a swordsman rather than a self defence/unarmed combat fighter, all his terminology is around the use of the sword, eg. cutting through intent, taking decisive action on openings. This is the mindset and training needed for traditional Aikido.

    There is now lots of varieties and outlooks within Aikido now. Aikikai organisation has as good as dropped weapons work as have many others and some have changed them, but don't confuse this for the same as someone studying traditional Aikido. Training with weapons is another mindset all together, so since our techniques do not change whether we are holding a bokken or not our mindset does not change, that is why we had the earlier clashes but now I have seen what you do, I believe you will have a big audience out there interested in what you do as it is ideal for unarmed combat arts.

    I hope my explanation makes some sense to you.

    Hopefully, you'll understand that sometimes apples don't want to be oranges.

    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks, I have lots to work on in this area. What you said was good.

    Just for a bit of clarification, when I said "power is driven through the hips," I don't mean the power comes from the hips, I mean drive like a steering wheel on a car. The alignment of the hips controls how my legs will factor into the power. Once there is a connection to the opponent, then the hips truly can become the steering wheel because I become the center of the "pivot point" and opponent is moved as to how I steer them (up, down, all around).

    The power itself, as I've been taught is more like a whip.
     
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Swordsman? I can live with that. As you say it is the mindset that many have changed. Attack at all times, display a superior fighting spirit, dominate the spirit of your opponent.Strike powerfully through the enemy's intention to attack. These are fundamental principles of traditional aikido that are becoming lost as the art is promoted in a "user friendly" manner.
    The sword principles of aikido hand techniques deserve a thread to themselves.


    regards koyo
     
  19. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    I'm glad you can live with the desription I gave you. :D

    I agree, a thread that can bring aikiken, aikijo and taijutsu back as one would be worthwhile. It might enlighten some of us and inspire us on to better Aikido. The proper mindset is what makes Aikido a special art to train and that comes from it's roots in weapons work.

    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  20. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Funny you make that observation Tedi ;)
    Since all of the stuff we do is based off of weapons work, even the body axis training. Or rather you could say that it's prepatory work so that the body can train itself with a weapon. The movement Ark uses is almost allll based off of koryu spear and sword :cool:
    Maybe the Apple is just an apple, masked in different packaging ;)
    One guy described Ark's kick as feeling as if his leg had been "cut" out of him.
    The sporting vids are just that, applying the same body skills in a ring combat setting, within a ring combat framework. When you don't have gloves on, its a different matter.
    I'd say that real CMA skill(taiji, hsingi, baji etc) is also based on weapons work as well, especially long weapons. Anyone that wants to get good anyways. So it's not like Aikido has a copyright on that approach.

    Rebel:
    Gotcha, your analogy makes sense. For us though, a lot of the power generation is more like that of a spear. You're going less for power, more for focus. You literally want to "put" the energy into the guy.
     

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