Ki in Aikido and Aikijutsu

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by shaolin_hendrix, Jun 29, 2005.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I am the first to agree that much of what is taught is rubbish.

    However, you again have avoided my question. Could you PLEASE tell us your martial arts experience?


    The Bear.
     
  2. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    4 years on web forums 7 days a week.

    You?
     
  3. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Because I don't see how it's pertinent Bear. We're talking about physical skills that you can or can't do. And since you can't seem to be able to describe them, nor training methods involved, you're resorting to the "what's your experience" diatribe.
    Something I saw Koyo didn't do and speaks to his character ;)
    (Even if he thinks if I'm a punk and despises me now :p )
    Btw, you did read the thread, didn't you? :love:
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2007
  4. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    So I see from your post count. ;)
    Don't worry Brido the decorating is almost over and we can get at it again.
    If Nicky lets me out.

    P.S. How was the BJJ seminar? Koyo weapons was excellent, though I felt a bit out of my depth.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2007
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Sorry, I am not a man of good character.
    It speaks volumes that you avoid answering direct questions. I am not here to judge you but if you want to be taken seriously then answer peoples questions honestly and they will realise you are here for an open exchange.

    The Bear.
     
  6. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    I think Polar Bear has a point Upyu! We have been completely open with you maybe you should return the compliment and be open with us, or is it a secret or part of that Asian mindset of keeping johnny foriegner in the dark as you mentioned earlier.

    Strangely, regarding Aikido I remember being told once the secret to Aikido is there are no secrets.

    Come on spill the beans! Help us all know where you are coming from!!!

    Teddy Bear
     
  7. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Cheers Bro.

    Come on Upyu, I'll even play the theme tune to "This is your life" as I read it.

    The Bear.
     
  8. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Fair enough,
    Though you could probably find out what my training background was by going through the threads I attatched earlier. ;)

    I'm training at a place called Aunkai here in Tokyo, the instructor's name is Akuzawa Minoru. I think it's been almost 3 and a half years now?? Haven't given it much thought to be honest.
    Before that I did Iliqchuen under a certain Sam Chin in NY, as well as Seven Star Mantis Fist under one of the senior students from the Polish QiXing TangLang groups. (Gotta love the polish for taking the school of hard knocks quite literally :) )
    Also did Kendo while I was in college (since i wanted to continue the few years I'd already done while in middle school in japan), but it was there that I originally noticed some high rankers at the Kenzen institute having uncanny timing, and in some cases power during the Jigeko practices.

    Long story short, I came across my current instructor that used to train Daitoryu under Sagawa Yukiyoshi, as well as various other Koryu guys who kinda shunned the limelight.
    Basically he's formulated a bunch of conditioning methods that cut straight to the chase in developing a connected body, and body skills at the same time.

    It's taijutsu, so the base still comes from weapons work found in sword and spear. He's reverse engineered a good deal of the chinese stuff as well, turning the forms back into developmental, or solo training routines that develop the body within a short amount of time.

    The main thrust of his development is in creating the bodies ability to naturally manifest "kei" or "jin", otherwise known as "Kokyu-ryoku" in Aikido circles.

    That's all I can produce off the top of my head :cool:
     
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Doesn't sound bad once you explain it like that.
    Now I have a frame of reference and can start seeing your direction alittle clearer.

    So whats is the main focus of the training? Is it the body development.

    I'm all for conditioning, it is something I need to do ALOT more of.

    If you can, without breaking any oaths obviously, could you maybe describe an average training session that you do?

    The Bear.
     
  10. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    Now do you not feel so much better for getting that off your chest? :D

    Kokyo-ryoku is a fundemental training principle in Aikido. Kokyu-ryoku is your extension, your breath. O'Sensei called extension the "circle of steel". It can also be thought of as your sphere. Literally, kokyu-ryoku means "breath power", or learning to coordinate breath with movement. When you understand when to breathe in and when to breathe out you can see easily the effects of Ki. This is highly involved and more apparent to the eye through the weapons work within Aikido in my opinion. Protecting yourself through taking ukemi using kokyu-ryoku to stop you taking excessive damage as well.

    That is something I relate to!

    I hope you see from the statement you will see movement is key to us.

    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  11. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Alright,
    Apologies if my direction wasn't clearer :(

    The main focus is in Tanren, or solo training exercises which make the body adhere to a certain frame (probably similar in concept to the process that Koyo described with the Bokken). The frame instills certain principles into the body and work to connect the upper, middle and lower parts into one unit, as well as working on movement within those regions. Once the body absorbs the principles your body starts developing into a "martial" body (quite literally... you can see the muscle change.) Anyways this method causes the body to just eventually spit out Jutsu (or technique based on a tanren imbued body) naturally.

    Some of the tanren look like this:
    Ten Chi Jin -> Heaven Man Earth exercise
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBV1nfpthUE"]Body Connection - YouTube[/ame]
    Shintaijiku -> Body Axis training
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsHm8umHpN4"]Shintai Jiku - YouTube[/ame]

    Sure I can describe what a typical class goes through (he's open about this stuff, so there's no "oath" :D ).
    The first hour and a half is generally taken up by conditioning exercises like the above, as well as Shiko squats and other variations. Generally you mind goes numb before your body goes ^^;

    Last half hour is spent on Agete (basically a simplified version of seated Kokyu Age),contact exercises based off of push hands, as well as other partner exercises including pushout.

    He doesn't teach techniques at all in most classes, though recently he's set up a Toshukakutou 徒手格闘 class for those that want to get more into the "ring" aspect of using these skills.

    The holding center concept that Koyo recently described is something I can identify with. But I think it's more a result of the body developing the connections, and as a result the intent. Its definitely something I use to cut my opponents actions off at the head when I spar.
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The last several posts in this thread are excellent. :love:

    I'd like to throw in the training in "KI" for practical application as a topic along with other discussion in this thread.

    Lets take the course that it is a self-defense situation that has come about over the length of a few minutes. Adrenaline and possibly fatigue can come into play even before a physical altercation takes place.

    One thing I noticed in stressful situations is that there is a tendacy to exagerate. Say for instance, someone wants to have power and trains that way, well in a stressful situation, they might tend to forget to move their feet, and root deeply... only now they have power but they have lost their mobility.

    The opposite can be true also. Say a person trains for mobility and moves around a lot in training, well in a stressful situation they may move too much as to uproot themselves and lose their power/leverage.

    Neither power without mobility or mobility without power is particularly considered good.

    I see great value in the learning of how to generate power while maintaining maximum mobility. Or as Koyo posted, "Maximum mobility, minimum movement." I would add to this, "... when under pressure."
     
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I can see elements from Tai Chi in the exercises. I think I am beginning to get a handle on your ideas.
    It is a very personal approach to training and I fear wouldn't suit many, me being one of them I fear.
    I can see how the exercises would develop static and explosive stength but how does the excercises translate into fighting principles? That really puzzles me.

    Actually the ideas co-incide with my personal criticism of current Tai Chi training. I always fell it should be trained internal first, then application and finally the form once you had conditioned the body and understand why you were doing the form. Maybe Brido can contribute here.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2007
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Hey Bear, what bracket would you put those exercises in - internal ?

    When you say internal first - what sort of training are you refering to ?


    Cheers.
     
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi CloudHandz,
    It looks to me almost half way between nei gung and form. I would need to see some on fighting with it to see if I could see elements from exercise translated. I think I would lean towards the nei gung side. What's upyu opinion on this?

    nei gung was training I was refering to.
     
  16. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Actually the body axis training is imbued with fighting principles, even if it doesn't look like it at first glance.
    What's funny is that neither of those exercises come from Tai Chi, they're straight up koryu :)

    The body axis training as well as its variations are all about keeping the bodies principles intact even as you move. Plus its filled with "irekae" (irimi for you aikido peeps). Essentially all the body axis training is the Ten Chi Jin movement being continuously inverted.

    I definitely feel you there...that seems like a no brainer...but so many rush to the application without realizing that without developed peng(kokyu ryoku) none of the apps will work. :)
     
  17. Upyu

    Upyu Valued Member

    Bear:

    I'm going to bed, but if you subscribe to my youtube account I'll add you in the morn so you have access to the private vids. Be easier for you to see him in action, I'll be more than happy to add any thoughts after that. (I dont mind elaborating either, but its saves me potential carpal tunnel if you get to watch the vids first and draw a more educated guess at the stuff :) )
     
  18. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Maybe you could be even clearer. What you have described above is still the same test crap you've been blathering on about all through this thread!

    How is ki expressed through a technique like kokyunage against an attacker who intends to harm you and isn't standing still and isn't about to willingly let you lay your hands anywhere on him?
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    My observation of this is that there is perceived movement, there is connection (contact is made), but there is no wasted movement (no wind-up, etc.) and all movement appears to be natural. The shocker is that there is still a lot of power even if it does not appear that there is a lot of effort.

    The martial application would be to take this internal skill and apply it to attacking kuzushi for maximum effect, but this seems different than what Upyu posted...

    The only issue I have with this is that it appears to me that your only way of unbalancing someone else using body skills is in fact because you retain your balance while the other does not. That because they don't have these same body skills they are inherently easier to unbalance.

    My concern that MOST people IMHO with a bit of skill end up grabbing to help them keep balance. They are not grabbing to take you down or apply their strength on you, they are grabbing so that they don't fall down. And if they do fall, they are just trying to take you down with them.

    So you unbalance them, then they grab hold of you to stay upright. What then comes next?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2007
  20. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    a good head butt?
     

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