http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34602 In the thread "chi and ki: same thing, different uses?" Dao talks about how when talking about ki Japanese MAists would refer to technique rather than actual ki. Do any Aikido schools use ki like the Chinese schools use chi? Do Aikido and Aikijutsu differ in their use of ki? How do Japanese styles use ki? Do Japanese styles ever actually use ki itself?
As my teacher says ... "without ki there is no Aikido". How much emphasis there is on ki however does depend on the style. Some make a bigger deal of it than others. Ki Aikido as taught by the Ki No Kenkyukai is probably the best know style for really makeing a point of teaching ki. So far as ki it's self is concerned I don't think the Japanese concept is exactly the same as the Chinese. From my own experience when ki is taught in an Aikido class it's more about your state of mind and not some elusive mystical energy. Which I think brings it down to a more practical and useful level.
There is VERY little KI in Aikido. If you ask an Aikidoists' about KI, they'll go on and on about how you're harmonizing with the energy of the attacker..blah..blah..blah. Almost like a state of mind, as opposed to many many different things that it actually is. The Japanese and Chinese concepts of KI/CHI are virtually the same. Both use different means of developing it. In some styles of AikiJujitsu, there are many many techniques that only work with KI involved. As for Chinese MA, I've studied some Tai Chi and can say without a doubt, that CHI is central to the entire style.
Ki/Chi are the same ask anybody who works in the field of TCM. China and Japan use the same theory i think you will find. So on an energy level in relation to TCM there is no difference.
Qi and Ki in relation to TCM are relatively the same, the Japanese have slightly different ideas on a few things but fundamentally they are the same. As for martial arts the two principals are very different. As has been stated Ki in Aikido is more a state of mind or focus or technique. Qi in Chinese arts does not differ from the Qi spoken about in TCM terms it is all from the same source. Examples include Xing Yi (Hsing I) boxing, based on the 5 phases (wu xing) and Ba Gua, which is based on the 8 trigrams of the Yi Jing (I Ching). In terms of practicality niether is more practical than the other but both serve different purposes. One could argue that the chinese concept pervades all things and is in accord with nature therefor it is more applicable, or one could take the opposite stance that japanese focus on power and correct technique is more appropriate for combat. Either arguement is purely academic and indvidual. So in answer to the question Ki and Qi are the same in terms of medicine and Chinese arts but not in terms of Japanese arts. Ki exists in Japanese arts but only as a conceptual idea and does not go so far as to qualify even as a theory as it lacks a sound theoretical basis. The Aiki principal is to do with blending, unbalanicing etc. It is more a philosophical idea or state of mind than something in relation to the Chinese equivalent Qi. Ueshiba was not educated in Qi physioogy and it was Ueshiba who created Aiki as we know it today. Takeda taught Daito Ryu Jujitsu later it became Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, the Aiki prefix is a modern addition to the best of my knowledge. The use of the word Ki is in it's context of being an energy but does not extend so far as to be a medical or physological meaning. Dao
Nice post Dao, but you are wrong on certain aspects. There are certain styles of AJJ that have many conceptual, philosophical and medicinal values of what KI/CHI is. There are many techniques in the Chinese and Japanese styles that speak of extending and placing energy at certain times and points. If you're getting a theoretical basis from an Aikidoists perspective, you will be sadly disappointed.
Dao... What aiki-jo doesn't tell you is that he knows absolutely nothing about Aikido, he open admits he doesn't study the discipline yet he seems to be 'apparently' and 'suitably' experienced enough to make himself look entirely stupid when he continually makes statements such as the above. Would you take specialist advice about your car from a scooter mechanic? Regards
Dao, Truth be told, I have taken a limited number of Aikido classes. But I have trained in AJJ for a long time and continue to train and learn. There is no subject or technique in Aikido that I haven't seen, trained or heard. After all, Aikido is a watered down version of AJJ. I also have been fortunate enough to train in some INCREDIBLE Chinese styles as well as witness many. The similarities are there between the 2, it just depends on where you get your information from.
Aiki-jo, I have to agree with Dave on this one. With the comments you are making, obviously you have not practiced Aikido with anyone who really knows how to do it properly. Aikido techniques, when done CORRECTLY, do not feel physical at all. If you are the attacker, the next thing you know you are on your back. You feel nothing to resist against, or counter. The Nage simply uses your momentum to lead you thru the technique. However, I have practiced with MANY people who are not able to do the techniques properly. As for being quickly street applicable, I would have to say that Aikido is probably not the best if someone is looking to engage in street combat. Because to properly do the techniques takes quite a while to learn. However someone who has correctly learn aikido techniques could be as effective, if not more, than any other martial artist.
I think that there is plenty of evidence to state that "aiki" was a concept that existed in daito-ryu long before Ueshiba's involvement with the art despite the fact that Takeda Sokaku sometimes called his art "Daito-ryu Jujutsu". Takeda, according to his son, taught the jujutsu and aikijujutsu portions of the Daito-ryu curicullum separately, so it is not surprising that he sometimes used either term when referring to his art.
Take the time to brows MAP aiki-jo. The vast majority of memebers here have the ability to be critical, and yet at the same time be polite. Perhaps a glaringly obviouse hint would be to drop the unnessasery derogatory comments you slip in time after time which even you must have by now noticed was causeing friction in every single thread you participate in. Indeed there is. The concept of Aiki has existed in one form or another for literally thousands of years not just in Japan, but throught Asia and indeed the world to some extent. It is without exaduration an ancient philosophy with practical applications in all areas of life.
Billions of Chinese can't be wrong... How can you post about the Chinese concept of qi if you don't even believe in it? You're right in that the Japanese concept of ki is not the same as the Chinese concept of qi. Yes, I know they're written with the same Chinese character, but they have come to mean different things. The Japanese concept of ki seems more to mean either "breath" or "energy of movement." Aikido means literally "the way of melding with the ki," because, as far as I understand, one of the main goals in Aikido is to feel the energy of the incoming attack and "meld" with it and redirect it. This ki, however, is not the same as the Chinese qi, which is an energy that flows through your own body that you can feel even when not moving. It is not just some "elusive mystical energy"--you just don't understand it. When a CMAist refers to using qi they mean using it to power their own attacks, not sensing the opponent's movement. Although some high-level Taiji people are supposed to be able to feel the opponent's qi by touching them, this is still not the same as the energy of movement refered to by Aikido-ka. I have never seen a Japanese martial art that makes use of qi the way the Chinese think of it. If you can give an example of how one does, then please tell me and I will admit I'm wrong.
I was at a seminar today, and the aikido was excellent. The attacks were not from 10-15 feet away. they were close. It was yoshinkan aikido/sensei Dave Rubens and I found it very similar to aikijutsu . I agreed with Dave early in the other thread and now I have tried some aikido I still agree its just the intent is different which gives it a different flavour in the flow of positions and footwork. Aikidoist can change intent, put in more strikes etc. We're just talking about ways of training here. people train different let alone styles and schools etc. Aikido has its own speciality/emphasis like most arts and I have to say i really enjoyed it. At the seminar there was Karate and taijiquan also, good MA aiki jo learn from eachother - . All MA is about getting good movement, they just take different paths.
Great post BTW... In the AJJ style that I've learned, I have a simple example. A masked strike. Meaning to use your energy to mask a strike. Then to follow that strike with the explosive CHI. We train using some kung fu style sticky hand practice forms that develop CHI. We're able to mask the energy from within, to litterly send it out full power. This is TOTALLY different than how Aikido perceives KI/CHI.
How close would you say the strikes were? I've seen some clips on that style. Is it as mechanical and robotic as the clips I saw? Guys are walking around like zombies? From the limited number of clips that I've seen, I would agree that it is more in the line of AJJ, but most of it still was Aikido. I would love to learn, it just needs to be credible.
You misunderstand. I do beleive in Ki. I just don't buy into all the mystical stuff. It is not nessasery to get embroiled in deep philisophical explanations that go on for entire volumes for the purpose of developing a more powerful exstention of Ki. Simple breathing and meditation is enough to acheive that goal. For the purpose of martial arts I think it is more practical to think of Ki as purely a state of mind. I say this because that is what I am after. The calmness and stillness of the mind that allows us to develop a greater awareness of our surrounding and of our opponents. It is also this calmness of the mind that allows us to develop more power in our techniques while still being able to move gracefully and apply technique so subtle in nature the attacker doesn't realise what is about to happen until it's too late. If ki doesn't manifest as a state of mind then what is it? Is it like electricity? Is it "the force"? I think not. Because I and many others take a different approach doesn't mean I don't beleive. After all at the end of the day everything in the univers is simpley energy in one form or another.
That is spot on. The purposes of aikido don't need to understand for example issuing of internal jing. It focuses more on blending and flowing of energy using an empty mindstate. It is that desire to harmonize that make the art soft. Onyomi, if you imagine your taijiquan with just the yielding element and chinna that is similar to aikido - although aikido specializes in that so is very sophisticated to those ends in it applications. Its reliance in ki doesn't have to go beyond that. Sensei Dave Rubens illustrated it well, when he threw an imaginary ball to a students and they through it out the door.
You only think you understand qi Qi is not a state of mind. It is an actual substance that we take in from the air around us, the food we eat, and from within our own bodies (called "original qi"). By practicing qigong, we are able to extract much larger amounts of qi from the air than normal and combine it with our original qi to make "true qi," an energy that we can circulate around our bodies at will for health and martial applications. It is not electricity. It feels kind of like a throbbing, tingling, wave-like sensation. As to what exactly qi is, I don't know--but I do know that it exists because I can feel it myself and observe its effects. I think it is only a matter of time before science comes to a more complete understanding of qi--we're just not there yet. It's not the force. You don't have to be religious to use it. When I perform explosive strikes while practicing CMA, I can mentally apply pressure to the dantian (the largest qi "reservoir" in the body, located about an inch below the navel and under the skin and muscle) and feel a rush of this throbbing energy move to my hands or feet. It's not just my imagination, either, because if it were, then why would I be able to use it to knock a bag far back without pulling my fist back? Are you saying hundreds of generations of Chinese martial artists were just deluding themselves in mindless mysticism? Are you saying a "state of mind" is rushing from my lower abdomen into my hand? Practice qigong seriously with a good teacher for a few months and I guarantee your idea of qi will change greatly.
