Kettle Bell

Discussion in 'Weight Training' started by Simon, Feb 26, 2017.

  1. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    If only we had a guy who was a Kettlebell instructor, who teaches other people to be kettlebell instructor to pitch in? ;)

    Maybe someone who realises that a KB is a tool, and should probably be used in conjunction with barbells, bodyweight and, Odin forbid, maybe even Indian Clubs?

    Perhaps, training is a spectrum that requires slow grinds, absolute strength and ballistics?

    Yes, the KB is a tool and 'almost' all of the benefits it brings can be found with other tools (but I hope you brought your sandbags).

    Yes, if you want to build absolute strength the barbell is King. That said, for you deadlifts, squats and presses the KB does offer some great benefits as an accessory tool in terms of longevity. The armbar, windmills and TGUs are great for bench press and back squat mobility. Heavy swings translate well to developing acceleration and break off in the deadlift, etc, etc.

    Are they essential, no. You could easily do speed pulls, good mornings, etc for you deadlift.

    The press is a slightly different beast though. The ROM on the KB press is different than the bar. It's a bit friendlier on the shoulders and you start lower in the rack which means it's 'harder' lb for lb than the BB (but that said, you also need to consider wedging, dominata, etc if going single bell vs double).

    Also... in terms of the often bandied around term 'conditioning', the KB offers lots of benefits here in aerobic, anti-glycotic and glycotic programs. There's a bit difference between:

    Snatch 24kg x 100/5 min
    Snatch 24kg x 200/10 min
    One handed swing 32kg x 200/10 min
    One handed swing 48kg x 4-6 OTM x 30 min

    All of those have benefits for humans seeking different goals.

    Before someone gyms on me and says: "Nobody ever got strong lifting KBs"

    I'd say: Maybe not in your experience, but in mine (Coaching them for a decade, plus bars, bw, etc) in phases where we've gone exclusively double kettlebell for 3-6 months most of my guys tend to maintain their max BB lifts (we're talking fighters here, not pro-powerlifters) but get leaner and better conditioned.

    And.... now I'm rambling ;)
  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    An appeal to experience nice ;)

    If only we knew someone who competed in powerlifting and who trained with numerous British European and world record holders, not to mention 5 commonwealth gold medalists, said person would have a good idea how to build strength and what place KBs have in the day to day training of such people.

    If only we knew someone who trained with master 2, 3 and even 4 lifters (that's guys in there 50's, 60's and in one case 70's) people who were lifting before powerlifting became a sport, before weightlifting and powerlifting split, such a person might know what it takes to have a
    long and successful largely injury free career lasting decades. And what role KBs play in their longevity....

    If only hey :)

    No where did I say the exercises you listed weren't useful, I simply said they could be done with other implements and have been for decades before Pavel turned up. I also said they were expensive and cost inefficient, a point you proved by pointing out that to work multiple energy systems you would need multiple experience heavy bells, when the same effect could be achieved with other cheaper implements.

    I'd also say no one ever got conditioned with KBs alone, but that's just my experience watching the likes of Paul Daley, Jimmy wallhead, Dan hardy get ready for fights.:)
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    So to paraphrase, for powerlifting and weightlifting, powerlifting and weightlifting is best.

    Kettlebells ae replaceable, but are small and easy to use at home, and are more about conditioning/ output over time (plus some mobility work) then absolute strength.

    How does that sound?
  4. Giovanni

    Giovanni nefarious editor Supporter

    wow, you're just so awesome. please let me train with you sifu. i have an idea, why don't you just rename the weight training thread to 'whatever icefield wants to talk about'.
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Name it what you want :) I'm off this site now but thanks for rebutting everything I said with well informed opinions back up by fact with appeals to emperical evidence and decades of experience .... Oh wait you didn't because you couldn't

    Once again for the people who have a hard time reading,

    1) they are over priced compared to other modalities
    2) they are limited in what they can do being a fixed implement
    3) They are over hyped and over marketed
    4) you can do a majority of the exercises with standard dumbbells which are cheaper (which when you questioned and basically accused me of lying about I backed up and proved with a simple link)
    5) these exercises have been round for decades before Pavel and the comrades turned up, again proved with links to courses from the 50s which had swings, windmills etc in.

    Are they useless no, are they worthless no, can you spend your money on something better, well let's see what's more cost effective a fixed implement you have to basically replace if you want to go up a weight, or one you simply have to add discs to or take them off to adjust weight... Seriously is it that hard a question, take your blinkers off, stop the stupid talk about functional and do some critical thinking .
  6. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Fine as always :) but that wasn't my original point, they are over hyped and over priced and for conditioning and mobility work you can replace them with dumbbells which are cheaper and just as useful.

    Heck if I was being arguementative which I actually am not honest, you can use a normal bar for conditioning or even mobility, overhead squats, or front squats anyone, split snatches? timed cleans or timed deads for conditioning anyone, or tempo squats, or 20min sets of lunges.... It's not the implement that's important but how you use it and my main point is limiting yourself to an object which is fixed to a certain weight and can't be changed without buying a complete new one is, well dense
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni nefarious editor Supporter

    see this is the problem. you're just going off on everyone always about how great you are. all the time. you make everything here antagonistic instead of positively sharing your experiences.

    pretty much everyone in this quote-unquote "discussion" has conceded that weight training with barbells is ideal--myself included. myself and others have even expounded on our experiences with kettlebells. yet, you're constantly pontificating to everyone. even flinging insults around like we're not thinking.

    ok, barbells are great. happy now. since you're off the site, i shouldn't care anyway right. all your supposed experience has now completely gone to waste because i could care less about what you say.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    massively off topic, but that common american phrase means the opposite in the uk to what you want to say.

    we say 'I couldnt care less', implying we care very little,
    Whereas You say 'I could care less', implying you care somewhat? even though, (Correct me if I'm wrong) you mean to say you dont care very much.

    sorry for the digression.
  9. hewho

    hewho Valued Member

  10. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Couldn't resist as I'm bored, you said they are functional and massively useful for BJJ as the Turkish get up is a technical get up, one movement is a frame and pulling your leg back, the other is holding a weight above your head whilst you Stand up from a kneeling position. You also said the swing is useful for BJJ, yet can't back any of these points up. You also can't refute anything i said in terms of cost and limitations for KBs when compared to simple dumbbells,

    I'd also point out you started the insults basically calling me a liar when i said how cheap DBs are, which I backed up and proved then you went all quiet....

    And i only put my experiences up after someone else made a plea to experience to point out others also have validated experiences here...

    Your right though i shouldn't put up my back ground, in this debate there's no need it's easy to see who can back up What they say with experience and who is toeing the part line so to speak :D
  11. Giovanni

    Giovanni nefarious editor Supporter

    oh wait, i thought you were "off this site". but you're back. sweet.

    when and where did i call you a liar. i want to see the words: icefield you're a liar.

    which i then thanked you for.

    what other words or lack thereof do you want to put in my mouth?
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    DB's are cheaper, and far more easily scaleable by weight, whereas with KBs you have to scale through time unless your willing to buy loads of them.

    But this isnt really an either or argument.

    lots of people use KBs because they're convenient, small, and they fell for the russian superman marketing.

    Do people actually do DB swings? they feel really akward compared to a kb swing?
  13. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Yep it's harder to start than the KB swing so normally deadlifted from between the legs as a dead start then when stood up you start the swing by pushing the hips back and swinging between the legs brooks kubrick did a video years ago on the swing , the heavy clean etc heavy swings are done either hand on has or fingers intergripped.
  14. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    You edited it but if your edited version of post a link isn't basically saying prove it as i don't believe you then you really need to work on your typing skills, along with your strength
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    ill have a look for that! cheers!
  16. Giovanni

    Giovanni nefarious editor Supporter

    yeah, that pretty much sums it up. lol
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I don't always use kettlebells, but when I do my name is Ivan.

    Mitch :D
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni nefarious editor Supporter

    mitch, i've been using my kid to practice my technical standups. he's actually 16kg, so it's been pretty sweet rolling against my three-year-old, because he can't stop my rnc or kimura for that matter. and he loves it when i kb swing him between my legs. for real. ha ha!
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  19. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Fantastic :D

    I was overhead pressing my daughter the other day too, saves buying more stuff to lift :D
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Moderator Supporter

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