Just deserts ?

Really dude?

I was talking about objectivity. I and no one in the world can be objective when their child is part of the equation. Especially not when it's your child vs people who you don't even know.

You want honesty?

I'd rather have someone else's child die instead of mine. I don't know you and I'd much rather have my own child live at the expense of yours. That's totally screwed up, but that's why I said that you were taking away my very CHOICE to be objective about that particular question.

Mirror time.

If you had to choose. Would you rather have my child die or your child die? (I really want you to answer this question btw)

If you hadn't realized yet, that's the same type of question you asked me. I just made it even more personal.

As for your question; "Why is 1 life more important than 10?"

My view on this is:

1 dead person is bad. 2 dead people is 2x as bad. 10 dead people as 10x as bad. 100 dead people is 100x as bad etc. etc.

I don't lump lives together. Every dead person is a tragedy to me. That's why when there's more than 1 person dieing, I multiply the severity of the tragedy.

 

It still goes both ways. What if you know one of the 10? What if it was a question of 10 members of your family vs one stranger? Or heck, what if all 11 were friends/relatives? Would you still say that that one person was just as important?

Oops... clearly you need to use more smilies .

 

Trust me, this sentiment is not necessarily true.

I admit I wouldn't care if something bad happened and I would probably feel justified if I got my hands on the people who hurt the people I care about and pulverised them with my bare hands at the time it happened. But that doesn't make it right and I certainly couldn't sit there and watch. Nor does it mean I would enjoy hurting someone else.

I don't think you want to follow that chain of thought through.

Yes, the internet is full of spiteful, hateful comments where everyone thinks that their views should be respected and no retribution will come from making comments that, if said in public, would usually get your head beaten in.

No one is talking about turning the other cheek. But most of us who have posted couldn't justify that kind of violent behaviour. But then what did you expect? You're on a forum that focuses on physical training, conflict de-escalation, the importance of walking away from a fight, etc. Some folks even concern themselves with using their training to help them become better people than they are. Going out of your way to beat the living crap out of someone goes against those principles.

True enough.

I'm sorry you seem to feel that is what other people are doing.

You're missing the point that was made - yes, other people are important. But often emotion throws rational thinking out of the window. It's easier to think rationally when you have "faceless X", but when it's about someone you cherish of course your emotions will take over and you will respond differently. It still doesn't mean people will automatically jump to being very violent, even if the temptation is there.

 

To tie up the last two questions, in one hit ( forget other posters user )

I made it about 'your' 'our' kids to try and wake people up to their emotions and step out of the cyber ' I wouldn't hurt a fly.... I cry for a cockroach..." Crap I'm hearing. That particular chain of thought started when someone said " oh if they raped multiple kids....." I was trying to Show the value of any one person in the right eyes.

To the second question, it would honestly be your child in a heart beat, of course! But I would also in all honesty trade my life for either of the two of them given the choice. I had a decent run, let the kids have a go for a while

You feel I'm as bad a our juijitsu teacher, as I don't shed a tear for a few cuts on his back and a sore bum? Judge away! I will wet the same amount of tissues as I did when sadam got necked and Osama slotted.

I try to be a decent human, help old ladies across roads, stop and help a stranded motorist on a wet night etc. if the fact that I feel no sorrow for the suffering of people I see as inherently evil offends people, please accept my appoligies fwiw. I simply don't accept they can be 'fixed' with any amount of lying on Sofa's, cocoa and chatting! They will tell you what you want to hear and laugh up their sleeve and do it all over again!

The obvious fact this guy is guilty by pretty much everyone except a half dozen people on MAP is amazing! Why was he speaking in riddles to his girlfriend ( the mother). Why go to the cops with a lawyer? If all he'd done was feed the kid a low fibre diet and accidentally drop him, you wouldn't do that would you? Finally a murdering pedophile gets a few well deserved kicking and a reem, and everyone's here is having a dummy spit!

 

The people here on MAP just wanted to point out how dangerous it is to torture someone who hasn't even been convicted. And also by approving these vile acts, we're no better than the people who did it to him.

Crazy stuff has happened in the past as people have shown you.

 

The point is that we're not a bunch of barbarians.

We're a civilization for a reason.

You can't be a civilized person if you want bad people to get raped and raped again and beaten and beaten again and generally have them suffer your worst nightmares.

 

It's natural to want vengeance when it is people you love who've been wronged or harmed by others. I'm no different.

If anyone in my family were grievously harmed by another, I'd hope that there would be people around me who cared enough to stop me hurting them.

I realise this is an emotive subject, to say the least, but you're just being insulting now.

Just as you're painting anyone who disagrees with you as insincere, holier-than-thou Guardian readers, you could equally be painted as a foaming-at-the-mouth undereducated News of the World "burn the paediatricians" type. But notice that no-one has done that to you. We are all people thinking for ourselves. When you generalise like that, it stops being a discussion and becomes a tribal shouting match, and no-one learns anything about the other's views.

You seem to be glossing over many questions set to you, I'd be particularly interested in your views on Heraclius' post:

 

TL;DR.

This thread highlights two points:

1) I'm grateful we have a jury vetting system in place;

and

2) Facebook and other social media platforms delude people today into thinking their idiotic views actually matter.

 

So you're happy with a rapist living next door?

It's not about being cool or enlightened it's about ensuring you don't become the monster you are fighting. I don't like torturers and I don't like rapists, I'm not a pacifist by any means I just don't think suffering for its own sake is ever worthwhile and a society that openly revels in it is barbaric.

 

Hatsie...What makes you think no one is being honest but you?
Being indifferent to the suffering of someone you despise is different to actively enjoying that suffering. You appear to be taking some considerable pleasure over it.
Honestly if the bloke did what he did then I'm not going to lose any sleep over what happened to him. But there's no way I'll rejoice about it either.
If I came across someone hurting someone I loved I'd no doubt attempt to hurt or kill them.
But that's not what I'd want the government to do in my name.
That's what we had years ago and life was horrendous.

 

If it was my kid? That is a tough one that I find I can't answer ' does not compute'
That and your previous comment about "is it ok to beat and rape daddy?" Shook me the most in this thread, and did make me think. The thing that please me is simply the fact that finally one of these people gets what almost everyone always 'says' they should get, when these things always come up!
Be honest with me for a second David, [a person]in the kitchen on a nice Sunday afternoon, the wife picks up the paper and reads a story about a beautiful young woman life destroyed by a monster brutally beating and sexually assaulting to death, her beloved one year old child. Now picturing that moment before a nice family lunch, which one of them would say; "you know what, I hope this young man who did this gets a nice comfortable cell, nice food and treated well dear! There's some nasty people in prison. More tea?" Or would they say something else?

It just seems to me the world is getting way too soft, everyone thinks everyone can be fixed with some councilling sessions and being nice. All too often some pedo gets convicted, does a short stint, gets out and destroys another families lives! And lets not kid ourselves your average prison isn't bread and water! They have good food, TV and gyms etc. so a few short years of that and kept away from the nasty people to boot, and where's your punishment? Whilst the familly will suffer for life!
So my 'pleasure' lays In the fact that someone has finally gotten exactly what I would want them to get ( well almost) if this had happened to one of my familly members, and I'm not afraid to say it. I am ofcourse convinced of his guilt, and I do think its disgusting what happened to that nice Iranian man, and of course all other 'jumping the gun lynch mobs'. if they have made a mistake...OMG! But if it is the right guy, I m fine with it.

 

It's not about feeling sorry for the offender.

Honestly, cruelty and suffering bring me no joy. No matter who is on the recieving end. It makes me sad, not necessarily for the cruel person who gets a taste of their own medicine, but for the world in general and the direction it's headed in.

I hope that one day, people do far less horrific things to each other than they do now. I would very much love for each generation to be less cruel than the last.

Maybe that is hopelessly idealistic, but I feel it is an ideal worth striving for.

If that means putting base emotions aside and showing mercy to those who don't "deserve" it, then so be it.

As PASmith said, there is a middle ground, and it is basically where we are now. Contrary to the impression some corners of the press would have us believe, there are people who will never be free to rejoin society, and rightly so. It honestly doesn't bother me that some of my taxes pay for them to live, because I'd rather live in country that lived up to higher ideals than one that merely looked at the bottom-line cost/benefit ratio as if we were livestock.

Ever heard of the cycle of violence? Many violent and abusive people come from environments where violence and abuse are normal behaviour. I don't think that's a coincidence. It's easy to demonise people, but can we really say that we could never, given the right circumstances of brain chemistry and environment, act in similar ways? I'm not so confident.

It's not about fixing the offenders, so much as breaking the cycle of violence that will produce more. You can't do that with more cruelty and death.

We do have very different outlooks though. You mentioned Hussein and Bin Laden. Their deaths didn't make me happy at all, my reaction was more "ugh, more death". To me, I think it is as simple as "nasty things don't make me happy", no matter who those nasty things are happening to.

 

I'm perfectly fine with my tax money going to keep him locked up in a fairly humane prison. I don't care for revenge, I just want rapists and other dangerous criminals locked away from society for the sake of safety. Punishment is secondary, and vengeance is petty.

 

That's a better way of thinking about it than mine. I can live with that sentiment.