Is Ninjutsu Really Effective?2

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kurama1234, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    "It's better to be silent and have everyone think you are a fool than to speak and confirm.it"

    Just food for thought
     
  2. Theidiot

    Theidiot New Member

    In defence of ninjedi, a valid point has been made.

    Years ago, when I was still at school, one of the school thugs decided I'd be good to beat up. He'd told me earlier that he was going to beat me up at break time so it's not like I was totally caught off guard.

    I tried to stay out of his way, but he found me. He was coming towards me.

    Now here's the thing. I had no chance. Everyone knew that. This chap was physically fit and well trained in karate. He was also older than me and just naturally tougher.

    I knew I couldn't fight him. I knew I couldn't out run him. And I knew I didn't want to be beaten up by him. The only logical option was the one I took. I waited for him to get close enough, then kicked him in the nuts as hard as I could.

    I can still see it in my mind's eye some 35 years later. He didn't drop like a stone. He didn't do anything or make any noise for a few seconds. Then his face went pale, he slowly doubled over, then sort of flopped to the floor. He had to be carried to the first aid room and I had to answer a lot of questions.

    Funnily enough, he sought no retribution. In fact we became good friends and remain so to this day.
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Having a bit of a tussle ar school is not the same as making an absolutely ridiculous statement that dismisses all training and skillset and puts it down to "who wants it?"
     
  4. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity


    I don't get it, I really don't. Even on here on this forum! I'm just a beginner boxer but everyone I speak to about my "hobby" says the same thing - something along the lines of "oh, boxing, only a sport with rules. If you're going to do a martial art do something that'll help you in a street fight" It is now really grating on my nerves! Have just begun sparring and I'm only sparring at 30% but it's not EASY! IT:'S HAAARD! Sparred twice at 80% and all my fine technique went out the window. Sometimes I get headaches after spar but it's getting better and I'm now BEGINNING to enjoying it. It takes immense courage to get in the ring/mma platform/muay thai ring etc. if only these people could get a taste of it, they'll change their mind. A boxer could easily throw a finger jab and he'd be far more accurate as his training involves perfecting punches BUT why on earth would you risk blinding someone in a street fight? even if you got away with it, it'll be on your conscience for the rest of your life.

    So, my question to the knowledgeable martial artists is, why do people think this way?!!!!!! Can they not see the sheer ferocity and voilence of an MMA match or the brutality of a punch...I mean, even with gloves people get seriously hurt and without gloves it'd be a blood bath. The thing is they have no idea whatsoever..if they could only think what it'd be liked to be punched, kneed, elbowed, kicked by someone who has perfected his/her techniques under extreme presssure and learned how to take blows I MEAN SERIOUSLY! REALLY ANNOYING! :mad::mad::mad:
     
  5. Theidiot

    Theidiot New Member

    I don't think that's what ninjedi was saying (I could be wrong ).

    I took it as meaning that training alone is no guarantee of victory in combat.

    I have a friend that has never trained in any combat art ever in his life. Yet he is locally renowned as a bit of a hardcase. It's not all hype either. He grew up in the rough end of town and his parents never really bothered, so from an early age he learned to do what he had to do to get by. Sometimes this earned him stints in jail.

    I have other friends that have trained for years in various martial arts. Some of them could probably kick his butt. Some, I doubt it.

    Here is what I personally think puts many a formally trained fighter at a disadvantage over someone that is naturally tough. You train according to rules. Of course you are taught the dirty stuff. You might even practice it with a partner who knows what you are going to do, and who knows what he must do. But you don't train against someone that is prepared to kick you in the nuts, or bite your face off.

    When you fight someone who is trained, even if it's in a different style to your own, you see patterns emerging. Fight someone whose spent a lifetime doing their own thing and you don't know what's happening.

    Here's something that I've heard instructors say. Your average untrained idiot doesn't know how to fight. He will usually wade in swinging his arms like a monkey.

    That's utter tosh. And by teaching that to often young kids, or people that are lucky enough to have not seen too many real fights, is to undermine all their training by teaching false confidence.

    I should point out I'm not saying for one second that training is futile. Of course it isn't. But it's not some kind of golden ticket to invincibility.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You had an unfair advantage because he did Karate :p
     
  7. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

  8. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    A lot of martial arts training is inferior to just brawling at weekends with other idiots.

    Some of it is far superior.

    The thing that remains is that the only way to learn to fight is through fighting.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    This is what he said

    Training itself affords nothing.... CORRECT training works wonders

    I flatter myself my exoerienec of violence is pretty comprehensive, and without training there is no way I would be able to say that
     
  10. Theidiot

    Theidiot New Member

    The bit about it now mattering what colour belt someone has or what they've trained in.

    I agree with him to a large extent. The belt one wears represents how far along you are on a specific curriculum.

    In my latest art, aikido, I am still on a white belt. I pity the fool that might choose to fight me on the basis that I'm a white belt in aikido. I just wouldn't use it. I'd do stuff I'm for more familiar with and confident in, which might borrow from my karate training, and might borrow from the little bit if judo and kung fu I did years ago, but will mostly be just me, doing whatever I feel I must, by any means necessary.
     
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So in other words from your training?

    QED
     
  12. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I think you need to expand your horizons training wise and then reevaluate your thoughts.

    Mentality is not to be underestimated but it's not the only factor.

    Belts are awarded for actual skill - as demonstrated in action - in some arts. And if you've ever had the living daylight's smashed out of you in training you'd know will isn't always enough without means.
     
  13. Theidiot

    Theidiot New Member

    I've trained in a number of arts. My main one for much longer and much higher grade than white belt.

    My point was that your belt doesn't mean much without knowing everything else. In the hypothetical example I gave, I was suggesting that an opponent, knowing I am a white belt in aikido, might fight me with all the wrong preconceptions about me, thus likely getting their ass kicked.

    Likewise the person with training that assesses their opponent on only one aspect such as that the opponent is not trained, is equally likely to get their ass kicked.

    My point is not that training is futile. It is that if we enter into conflict with a head full of assumptions, we're going to get a pummelling.
     
  14. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I'm aware you are a karateka primarily, who has just started Aikido. You seem to have only experienced one particular sort of training approach.

    Your ability is what counts. Assumptions are irrelevant and you likely won't have either the time or info to form many.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  15. Theidiot

    Theidiot New Member

    I think we are agreeing, but misunderstanding each others way of explaining.

    I jumped into this thread when ninjedi got ridiculed for pointing out that belt colour means nothing in a real fight. To ridicule him on that point is to argue that belt colour means everything. That being the case, there is a clear assumption going on that belt represents general broad spectrum fighting skill. It might. Equally it might prove that the wearer trained under an egotistical teacher that likes to boast about his black belt count. Equally it might mean that the belt wearer was awarded his belt for sheer determination in a fight against disability etc. Either way, mocking someone who observes that belt colour doesn't tell you much about fighting skill, is making assumptions, and advocating the making of assumptions.

    Incidentally, for the record, while I'm roughly half way to black belt in my current main style, I am aware that there are white belts in that style that could kick my ass in a real fight. Not because they have more skill, but because they are younger, stronger and faster than me. At the same time, if it came to a real fight, I dare say I could knack a few of our dan grades, for exactly the same reason.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No one mentioned the belt thing. I think that everyone here is in agreement that a belt imbues no magical fighting powers on a person.

    It was purely the assertion that training has no effect on the outcome of a violent encounter.

    While that may be true for some, and for a few the training could arguably decrease your odds of surviving violence, if it is good resistant training grounded in reality then a lot of these weekend yobs will be a pushover compared to your training partners.
     
  17. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I dunno dude I think that you are creating a false dichotomy. Pointing out that belt colour is not irrelevant (especially when ninjawhatever used belt colour as a symbol for training/skill level) is not the same as saying belt colour is everything. The guy was wheeling out the tired dealy street vs rules training nonsense we have all heard a million times which is why he was told he was talking crap.

    Your posts about rank illustrate what I was saying about your training experiences. Your ranking system bears no relationship to actual fighing ability some others actually do. Place in the pecking order isn't something to obsess over but neither is it something you should have to guess... Your training should reveal it and remind you daily.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  18. Theidiot

    Theidiot New Member

    I think we're pretty much in agreement on most points. To debate further would be splitting hairs. Perhaps it saw emphasis in one place while you saw emphasis in another, but fundamentally, we saw the same thing.
     
  19. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Actually Hatsumi-sensei has said that a few times
     
  20. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Oh yeah? Good on him.

    I believe he also has said something along the lines of 'do what I did not what I do now' which also seems like solid advice too.
     

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