I'm back again, long time, etc.

I just wanted to say hello. Time flies. At some point, I stopped checking out this forum and today I went in again. It's one and a half year since last time!

So if any of the dudes from "the old days" are still around, I'd just like to say that I haven't quit HEMA and here's what I've been thinking about since last time I was around.

First off, I have been fighting for fun with re-enactors for as long as I've been doing HEMA (which is close to 10 years now). The first years, this was mostly just for fun, in order to be able to take part in show-fights for tourists, and in order to be allowed in on re-enactment-battles. The scandinavian re-enactment-rules are:
*Cuts and thrust with metal blunts are OK.
*Head is forbidden area.
*Gloves are only mandatory protection (allthough groin/tooth-protection is recomended)

I realized that most of the dudes primarily doing the re-enactment-fighting became good sword-men faster than I was, and this frustrated me. First i rationalized and tried to convince myself it was because the re-enactment-style differs from the real and awsome world of fiore/liechtenauer HEMA, but then I started meeting hema-first-timers with mask and shinai, that still wiped me out like that, when they were fighting on "my termes".

I then went into a "depression", thinking that I'm a dork...

But as I work as a teacher, I started looking into the didactic(don't know if this is a word in egnlish), and started wondering if "re-enactment-fighting" is a very good method for teaching sword basics?

I then went to the HEMA-gathering "swordfish", november 2008, and ironically met a lot of HEMA'ers from the rest of northern europe + usa that was thinking like me and having the same experiences. I went to a class with Scott Brown that was having the excact same experiences. He had a theory that HEMA had been too focused on the 2d templates and texts, forcusing far to much on the techniques themselves, and forgetting basics, which (I guess we all agree to this) is

Timing
Distancing
Control of the blade

I went back from this gathering with a coupple of new tools in my bag for my little HEMA-group, and I started looking at re-enactment-fighters with the eyes of Scott Brown.

They hardly do any static drills (they learn to not hit the opponent too hard,and to hit where they aim, and after that, it's all free-sparring)
When they free-spar, they instinctively learn timing and distancing.

I went to a re-enactment-class for "advanced shield techniques", and the lecturer was all "against" HEMA, disregarding it as a static display for people opposed to re-enactment.

As his course went on, I saw technique after technique of his, that was just as going to an I-33-seminar! This guy was actually displaying a very good take on I-33 without ever knowing about that manual!

So now, I'm taking my re-enactment very serious. -And I see how it actually improves my HEMA-abilities dramatically

(I've allso been doing a lot of submission wrestling -european medieval-style the last 2 years, and I've been shown a couple of new interpretations on Fiore, which makes sence to me)

 

Glad to have you here! I've seen a lot of your posts when I searched the older threads in the WMA section.

By the way, at least to me, your analysis on training methods seems spot on.

 

Hello! A quick browse tells me that you're from USA, and then I have to ask (even if I know that USA is pretty big, 50 states, etc, etc) if you have ever met with Scott Brown.

What are you training?

 

i remember you!

although i'm not a WMA guy

welcome back!

 

I was wondering where you'd gone off to!

Glad to have you back.

Speed, timing and intensity can overcome reasonable technique more times that we'd like to admit as HEMA practicioners.

I agree with your basic sentiment. I like to get students sparring as soon as possible. I start out with "coached" sparring where I present openings for them to hit so they can practice agression and guard-breaking. I slowly ramp up the resistance as they improve. If they make mistakes I show them, and if I counter them I show them what I did, and how to not let it happen next time.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

I have not trained with Scott Brown. I'm currently located in Medford, Oregon, which isn't really very close to anything at all

I'm training Olympic-style epee and Olympic-style saber, with the primary emphasis on the former. I've got an academic interest in historical European martial arts, but for my own training, I tend to prefer the modern, sporting approach (that goes for both WMA and Eastern martial arts, where I enjoyed Olympic-style TKD more than traditional Shotokan karate).

 

Welcome back stolenschwert.

Good to hear from you again.

 

I'll make sure it's not going to be another 18 months until my next visit!

I just love the wma-ema-comparison-thread, one of the most interresting threads I've been involved in on the internet :meditate: :bow1:

 

Welcome Welcome Bjørn. I'v seen you over at blankvaapen though.
Not many Norwegians here

 

Ah, what's your nick there? The same?

 

Hi Stolenbjorn,
I think your story is more about what's wrong with HEMA rather than what is right with Re-enactment. Almost all HEMA training I have seen is absolute bunk. Hence why I left the BFHS and stopped attending seminars where I am subjected to experts who have not fought in their life tell me how to fight. HEMA is in a shocking state currently and I don't see it getting better any time soon.

The Bear.

 

Hi Stolenbjorn...

Good to hear from you again & your experiences/observations...

Louie

 

Don't remember. I don't post there, just looking by now and then.

 

Have you seen any of the eastern re-enacters (ukrainians, polish, russian)? If so, what do you think about their approach? They have some sort of submission-fencing(?) that seems pretty hard IMO. I was in Grunwald this summer, and had the interresting pleassure of seeing the tournament where they go full contact with metal blunts. The rules were somewhat unclear to me, and as they are as bad in english as I am in Polish, it was difficult to get a proper explenation. From what I saw, it seemed that trying to hit where the opponent had the least protection was a popular technique, as well as wrestling and shield-slamming. In this video [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqkEb9-rVCY&feature=related"]YouTube - Pojedynki Grunwald 2010 - złamany miecz[/ame] -you see what that means, and I allso saw someone ending up with a longsword bent 90 degrees. Several were sent to hospital, and an ambulance stood stand-by 10 meters from the tournament-field...

Here are some videos from the team-play-tournament from grunwald:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJrs6BBWWJ4&feature=related"]YouTube - GRUNWALD 2010 POJEDYNKI[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaoZr2_66Xg&feature=related"]YouTube - Grunwald 2009 Finał bojówki cz 1[/ame]

 

Hey Stolenbjorn,

You're right. "Free Play," "Sparring," "Assaulting," whatever you want to call it, is absolutely 100% a MUST if you want to understand and functionalize what you're learning.

Probably the most successful system I've seen for teaching students to turn "set plays" of "rote techniques" into actual, functional, "in the body" abilities is Judo.

Judo has three kinds of "practicing" (well, really a bunch more, but these are the important elements in my opinion for this specific kind of learning).

Uchi Komi - This is the equivalent to multiple repetitive Static Techniques. There are lots of ways you can do this, every thing from "One Steps" through "do as many reps as you can in X time" but the whole point of it is to focus in on learning the mechanics of one technique. It'll give you the nuts and bolts of how to do it, but won't teach you how to fully functionalize it against someone trying to prevent you from doing so.

Randori - This is, again, implemented differently in most Dojo's but the basic idea in this context is to have the students "spar lightly" against each other while specifically trying to use the techniques they just practiced earlier in Uchi Komi. This is "resisting" practice but not "fully resisting." If your partner gets the technique right, let him have it. You're goal is to help him learn how to apply it "on the fly" in a chaotic environment while you're trying to both counter and apply some other technique.

Shiai - Fully resisting competition. You and your partner do everything you can (with the context of your Free Play rules) to prevent each other from successfully completing a technique while, simultaneously, doing everything within your power to apply techniques yourself.

Since I've been exploring Hutton's "Great Stick" with a student of mine lately I'll use that as an example. In this, after introducing the basics of Hutton's "Great Stick" system, we would work through one to five of the static drills that Hutton lays out. These are designed to give the student a "flow" of options for "what comes next." But it won't be a natural. These should be worked over multiple classes until it becomes fairly "natural." Very quickly, and without abandoning the static drills, the students should put on safety gear and do 1/3 speed bouting. The goal with this bouting is to become "comfortable" with the movements in a chaotic environment when you may be attacking or defending while your opponent is doing the same, all with an unknown measure, tempo, and technique. Finally, after some period of classes, the students should armour up and do some very earnest bouting, sometimes called "Free Play" or, classically, "Assaulting." This is (within reason) full speed, fully resistant sparring. Feints, double & triple intentions, draws, the whole range.

When students begin to grasp the static drills they think they're ready for Assaulting. But they're not. The 1/3 speed free form is overwhelming and they get hit, look and move clumsily, and simply aren't "up to snuff." When the students begin to do well with the "randori" then they think they'll rock out loud on the full-on Free Play "Assaulting." Again, they're not. The whole spectrum changes again. However, at this point, they are ready to learn the lessons that full-out Assaulting will teach them.

And here's the frustrating part. The skills in 1/3 speed and "Assaulting" are very perishable. You have to keep in practice to stay good. Neglect it for too long and your skill level drops. Not all the way to zero, but far enough that you'll be aggravated with yourself.

But, anyway, your observations are absolutely spot on. You have to have chaotic, resisting, "sparring" if you want to actually functionalize the material.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

I've for a very long time pondered the dilemma of training specific techniques without getting into the static-trap.

Scott Brown (WARNING: I MIGHT HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD HIM) showed us how he never taught specific techniques to beginners in a static way. One way of getting around the static-trap, was to set up a dummy (for instance the instructor himself), doing a basic 8-swing with a regular rythm, lining up the students at least 3 meters away from the dummy. With this set-up he could do a lot of basic training. One thing you can do is to not teach any proper technique at all, just stating "when I say NOW, advance on me, hit me in the mask without getting hit by my repetitive 8" He then said NOW, and people learn very quickly
-that they don't stay in the chaos-zone more than nessecary
-that timing is a good thing
-that certain techniques are best, depending on where the opponent is in his 8

At higher levels, the dummy can be allowed to not just do the 8, but actively resist and try to kill the student advancing.

This is a lot of yapping from my side, I wish we could meet and talk and show, that's a much better way of teaching!

My job is to teach foreginers norwegian, and ironically, I have discovered that the best way of teaching analphabets or non-academics a new language and the best(?) way of teaching fighting is very similar! The student must discover a problem himself before it's any point in trying to correct him. You present a problem to the student, but he must figure it out himself. To just teach him a rule gives him the ability to recite, but doesn't give him the competance to apply it.

In short, I think techniques are not worth anything until you have understood how to fight. When I show my re-enactment-friends HEMA-techniques, they can after like 5 minutes get the idea and apply it within their system, no big deal, that impresses me a lot.

So now, I've re-arranged my own way of teaching HEMA; we basically don't train techniques at all, we just spar. When the students discover somthing new, (like why I allways keep killing them on their left side), we discuss and I show, and they grab the consept or they dont.

Here's a short video of my friends in action (NB: it's lousy resolution, horrible sound and unedited, but it was the only clip I found where they fight for winning, and not just to please tourists; showfighting and sportsfighting looks very different, even if they use the same rules. In this particular setting, head-hits are allso allowed Note the control of the blade, their natual adaptation of distancing, timing and techniques, without ever attending HEMA-classes) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8OhJuHZd_A&feature=related"]YouTube - Kveldkamp Vinter07[/ame]

 

As entertainment it looks like a lot of fun. However, it has very little to do with fencing of the medieval period. If you were to fight like that in reality you would be dead or mutilated very quickly.

I think you need to intensity of the re-enactment combat combined with the reality of fencing and you'll get something good. Real fighters don't trade blows ... period.

The Bear.

 

I agree. You don't want to stay in the kill-zone more than highly nessecary.

Some of my friends have started fighting first to two hits, not because that is more realistic, but to train that you don't stop fighting just because you've got a hit. -Said in another way; the rule is there to avoid "wronglearning" (Vranglære as we call it in Norwegian); avoiding people unintentionally training to stop fighting when they get hit. (Like the famous tale of the american policeman drilling disarming, and returning the dagger to the dummy, ending up disarming an attacker in a real-situation and handing over the dagger on reflex!)

Fiore mentions that he will show some examples of counters to attacks, and counters to counters. He further explains that there are even counters to counters to counters, but at that point in a fight (I interpret it as if you have "traded 3 blows"/been in the kill-zone for 3 "events"), the situation have become so randomized and chaotic (the kill-zone is by some called the chaos-zone), that it's best to disengage, and it's anyway impossible to try to state in a manual what's best to do.

Yep, it was the intensity, their ferocity that interrests me, it's a bit like when we do submission-wrestling in classes, it's not realistic, as we cannot eye-gouge, dislocate and throw at full force -but it's the best we can do.

That said, the armor protection they use is enough to stop the full impact of their blades. If they had a bit more takedowns and thrusts(I don't thing thrusts were allowed), I think their way of fighting would resemble a judicial match pretty well. I saw one takedown that was done with such force that the target knocked down the fence, so he ended up amongst the audience.

 

Welcome back Bjorn

 

I don't put much stock in Fiore, he was writing for a specific audience. He overcomplicated his teaching to ensure a full belly in retirement. It's why I study the German school instead.

Well the interesting thing that you find in the German tradition. Is that they always say you should fence with a "good" heart. I view that as with intensity and focus but not anger and ferocity.

The Bear.