If you took Aikido would you know ninjutsu wrist locks?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Bubble99, Apr 20, 2015.

  1. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    A lot of ninjutsu use wrist grab, arm grab,pins and holds and take towns how different is it of Aikido?

    Would person taking Aikido be able to do these moves or are these moves very different.

    Are these ninjutsu wrist locks very different than Aikido wrist locks?

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jE4d-owZqA"]How to Do the Muso Dori Technique | Ninjutsu Lessons - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bySG8zR9lic"]How to Do the Ura Gyaku Technique | Ninjutsu Lessons - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3oocmVS5jQ"]How to Do the Omote Gyaku Technique | Ninjutsu Lessons - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzVT72lmbA"]How to Do the Musha Dori Technique | Ninjutsu Lessons - YouTube[/ame]
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Take the wrist and bend it where it shouldn't go - everything else is only cosmetic differences
     
  3. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    You would learn Aikido wrist locks/techniques , some of which may bear a passing resemblance to some ninjutsu techniques.
     
  4. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    The difference between the two arts is huge and simple to understand, Aikido is built on 3 main principles Hanmi, awase and Kokyu. This is what makes Aikido different to other arts. I have no idea what principles make up Ninjitsu but the hand techs look familiar as there is only so many ways you can manipulate the body, joints. Its the principles behind how the are applied that differ
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I didn't look at the videos, but will answer from some personal experience.

    Aikido has severe technique (ara waza), which is done 200-300% faster than normal speed. For example, rather than projecting (throwing) someone with a wrist lock, you break their wrist.

    Jujutsu technique is often based on the ara waza but for safety, it is slowed down at the end. Going back to the wrist lock. Jujutsu wrist lock/break (based on ara waza) is to twist the wrist laterally in a direction it does not bend (so it breaks instead). Conversely, the wrist lock projection (throw) is to bend the wrist in a direction it bends, curls their fingers to make them make a fist, and their whole posture is broken as the components fold.

    So is the goal to rip/break or is the goal to fold/throw? The technique does not matter as much so long as it is done correctly, what can be more important is knowing the difference.
     
  6. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Is it Aikido more flowing,smoothing and blending than Jujutsu or ninjutsu wrist locks and take-downs/throws?
     
  7. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    But I wonder how much of Aikido throws and take downs are the practitioner doing it than attacker doing the throw,flip and roll to break out of wrist lock.:confused: Or it more 50/50.


    Where Jujutsu or ninjutsu the practitioner doing more of throws and take downs than the attacker.
     
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

  9. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    I'm not sure what you are saying here - it looks like you are suggesting that the reason people get thrown in JJ or Ninjutsu is because they are throwing themselves? If so, I invite you to visit a JJ class.....

    If I'm reading it backwards, and you're suggesting that Aikido only works that way, then I would say that you've found a less then ideal Aikido school. In Aikido/Hapkido practitioners will often flip and roll to avoid having their bones broken if the technique is being executed properly. And, in Aikido, as mentioned above, when practicing 'Ara Waza' (my friends Hapkido school uses a similar principle calling them 'military' techniques) you take away/limit uke's ability to fall with the intent of breaking bones/joints as a result. More 'aki-bunny' type Aikido schools that simply throw themselves just because have given the art a bad name.
     
  10. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    If I understand Rebel Wado post Aikido attacker will throw,flip and roll to break out of wrist lock. That with out doing of risk of injuries.

    Where Jujutsu or ninjutsu the practitioner doing more of throws and take downs on the attacker.
     
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Again, nope
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    You should never do a throw or take down without first unbalancing the opponent. This is true in Aikido and Jujutsu. The rest is really up to the quality of teacher and your training partners. Does not matter the art.

    I think also there may be differences what you and I believe are the roles of uke (attacker) and tori (practitioner). Uke performs ukemi so that tori can experience the full range of a technique rather than stopping. This has nothing to do with uke throwing themselves, but rather going with the force so that the technique can be practiced with intensity.

    The role of tori is to perform the technique correctly while allowing for ukemi.

    The role of uke is to steal the technique (learn what works and where there may be holes in transitions). To steal a technique, uke must challenge tori to make sure what they do really works (with control for safety reasons).

    In Aikido, you would not want to roll to get out of a wrist lock, that is plain too slow to be practical in real battle. You would counter immediately instead. Of course if you only ever counter, it is hard for tori to experience the full range of a technique. So countering the technique comes in later lessons once the technique is known.

    Now a full body throw is different than a wrist lock, on a full body throw, there is a better chance that if you miss countering immediately, you will be picked off the ground, in which case, you will have to learn to ride the technique until the point where you can counter. This can be done against a shoulder throw, for example. But would not recommend on a small joint lock.
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Nope as Hannibal repeated.

    See my last post. Never throw or take down without first unbalancing the opponent. I will add, never lock/break without first stunning or unbalancing the opponent.

    The difference is that some Jujutsu throws are really breaks and aren't intended to take the person down (if the person goes down that is just follow-up to the technique).

    If you are training the throw/take down, then you have ukemi so that you can experience the full range of the technique. It is not to escape the technique, it is to learn it.

    If you are training the break, you want to slow down near the end so that it doesn't actually break the joints. Ukemi happens as an after thought, in some cases it is a tap out instead.

    This is not to say that someone couldn't train to use some acrobatic moves to counter throws, but you have to wonder about the martial value over the showmanship value of these types of moves. Remember that combat isn't all physical, fancy moves could distract and demoralize the enemy, which could be of value.
     
  14. Giovanni

    Giovanni nefarious editor Supporter

    sweet black ninja gi's though.
     
  15. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    So if I understand it in Aikido only advanced student will counter a wrist lock or add resistance.
     
  16. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Also you don't want to strike or block the incoming attacker it would cause a stopping movement and making throw or take down harder. And this will not be flowing or smoothing.
     
  17. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Counter no , adding resistance is ok (in our club) at mid levels , though to clarify , it's not full randori resistance , more don't just allow the technique to happen and fall over kind of resistance.
     
  18. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Wrong , striking the incoming attacker is integral to many techniques as it breaks posture quite nicely.
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    "99% of Aikido is Atemi"....or more succinctly If I smack you in the mush I guarantee you will be MUCH easier to take down
     
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Wrong! Take shomen-uchi iriminage from the Yoshinkan syllabus. After you bring them around you strike before you change direction either as distraction or kuzushi... the same reasons you strike when starting almost any technique in aikido.

    Yes but you need two to tango.. and advanced student with enough time in randori and breadth of technique to be able to transition and an advanced uke who can change direction fast enough for ukemi.
     

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