How does aikido teach striking?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Mitlov, Sep 5, 2010.

  1. izumizu

    izumizu Banned Banned

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    Well, I watched the video, and out of around 230 techniques, I was able to see about perhaps 7 atemi...still not the 90% that seems to be a standard, and still not used to set up the technique or create an opening. In one of the techniqes it is with swords, and I've stated that with weapons could be a situation that could warrant a strike. In another O sensei strikes the man after the techniqe is completed.

    As far as the irimi nage goes entering with atemi, I understand that principle and I inadvertantly did so while demonstrating iriminage last week using one of our blackbelts as uke. The guy had spent an hour prior to class swimming and was a bit discombobulated getting up. However, even in those O sensei is not actually striking since the well trained ukes move out of the way.

    If I go to hit something but I do not connect, is that a strike?

    I would also say that O sensei looks relatively young in this video, and this would indicate an earlier phase of his budo, or aikido development.

    Still, great video.

    I could capture a still frame from each of O senseis videos in which he is striking and compile that together to show an emphasis on striking. But in the videos themselves I don't feel there is an emphasis on striking, certainly not 90%, certainly not even 50%. There is very little emphasis on striking and it is not used to create an opening, nor is it used to set up the technique. He has quite a few videos out there, and from those that I have seen very little emphasis on striking.

    I am aware of the knee strike in kaitenage, I have mentioned that to rebel previously (not on this thread), and explained how we strike with the knees in a similar fashion that kajukembo uses the knee strike. And I don't always use the strikes either, as I stated the awarenes provides the option of choosing to strike or choosing not to strike.

    Yes, perhaps I should do more research, could you perhaps provide some links or publications so I may continue to do that research? I'll try and go back and find some of koyos pictures, but without knowing what thread / topic those are in it will be difficult as he tends to post many pictures in many threads (which isn't a bad thing, it's great to have saved some of the history, and I wish I had as many pictures of me practicing, but generally where I have practiced cameras have been frowned upon except at demonstrations or seminars, and that changes from sensei to sensei). Perhaps you could guide me better to some of the threads and post numbers?

    Thanks in advance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i have a couple books i'm basing my comments on. one is called "secret teachings of aikido" and the other is "the essence of aikido". my wife knows i'm a book nut so just went on amazon and got them for me when i started in aikido a year ago. i have never read the spiritual ramblings and just look at the pictures...lol.

    pretty much every iwama picture (with saito as uke) show ueshiba performing a strike. i think it's interesting that in the whole arc of a technique, take irimi nage for instance, the pictures that are chosen are invariably with the strike in them. i think that says a lot. i would say 90% of the kokyu dosa pictures (the ones i've seen span o sensei middle through later years) in either book also feature a strike.

    i very much agree with your statement about awareness of atemi.

    cheers!
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I feel you are a person that likes to take things at face value and literally. Perhaps we see things differently because of the translation. 90% does not necessarily mean 9 out of 10 times. 90% could refer to an often used metaphor of the iceberg. 10% of an iceberg is visible above the water and 90% is hidden under the water line. The whole idea of 90% being hidden is that you can't see it, so you aren't going to see 9 out of 10 techniques being atemi, however, 90% of what makes a technique work is going to be related to atemi in some way.

    Perhaps if you take things literally, a better translation would be "90% of the EFFECTIVENESS of Aikido is in atemi".

    There are three cuts pretty much for all Aikido techniques as I understand it. First cut is to unbalance/stun on contact, second cut is to break the posture at the hip and spine, third cut takes the foundation away. This is related to Triangle, Circle, Square.

    Sometimes all three cuts happen together which is what is seen in many of the demonstrations of Aikido so it is hard to see that there is any atemi.

    If the first cut is successful but the second cut somehow is countered, then tori has to start over again with a first cut. For instance, I've used a one-knuckle punch or a knee to the armpit to stun when a second cut to Ikkyo is not fully successful at breaking uke down.

    If the first cut is blocked, then this is the only time you will see atemi being used as a "set up" because the blocked or attempted to be blocked atemi leads to another "first" cut based on the reaction from uke, leading to another technique.

    By the way, in FMA knife fighting there are also three cuts. You are not allowed to grab on to the opponent until the third cut (if you grab at all). This is because if you grab on as the first cut, a bigger, faster, or more skilled opponent will counter you and then they have you. If you grab on the second cut, a skilled opponent will often be able to counter by "cutting" their way out. If you grab at all on the third cut, their weapon is "destroyed/neutralized" by that time and they won't be able to counter as they lose their foundation (or are knocked out).

    Oh by the way, a "cut" does not equate to one atemi, multiple strikes chained together could be used for a single cut. And in some cases, especially on a third cut, the cut can be combined with a grab or joint lock.

    I use a very broad definition of atemi.

    All parries are atemi as in checks, they are not grabs.

    For tenkan, there is an element of an atemi with the hips. This may not hit anything as you enter backwards, but it is still part of effectiveness of the technique.

    For irimi, there is an element of an atemi with the shoulder. This may not hit anything as you enter, but it is still part of the effectiveness of the technique.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  4. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    Hidden in Plain Sight: Tracing the Roots of Ueshiba Morihei's Power. By Ellis Amdur.
    I think this is an interesting read. He states that if you through an aikido technique can not effectively deliver a strong atemi that will unbalance and harm your partner without unbalance or put you in a position that is dangerous, you are not truly doing aikido.
     
  5. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I agree. Being struck does help you learn to become more aware. But that's not the purpose of the strike.
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Maybe not the purpose of the strike, but it can be very good and useful in training.
     
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks ludde, nice post. That quote seems to address:

    1) a strong atemi that will unbalance == unbalance
    2) and harm your partner without unbalance == stun or knockout
    3) put you in a position that is dangerous == fighting spirit and also what uke must do.

    Just for starters, there is more that could be read into this depending on context.
     
  8. izumizu

    izumizu Banned Banned

    Thanks for all of the book recomendations. I'm also a book nut, and take pride in my ma book collection, and these are titles I do not have, and some of them I have never heard of except for here on MAP.

    With some of this emphasis on striking, and then in much of O senseis videos to me at least an apparent lack of atemi in the fashion in which I have been instructed in atemi / striking, makes me wonder if O sensei taught differently when he was at Iwama, vs. what he taught at Hombu?

    As for the ice berg analogy, a great and surmisable analogy, but I'm not so sure it applies to the principles of striking. My feeling is that analogy would apply more to his actual technique, and the parts of his technique that he would not or did not explain to his students what it was that he was doing. Just some of my thoughts.
     
  9. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    Just saw this on utube and thought of this thread.ok it's not aikido, it's Daito-Ryu..but very simiar.and Daito ryu is on of the contributing arts to Aikido.................the guy has some nice ukemi skills, makes me wish that I could get back on the mat:cry:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT1aNmSbKb8&feature=related"]YouTube - Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu & Yawara Demo[/ame]
     
  10. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Not sure what to make of this video. I'm always a bit sceptical when I see a demo where nage answers a single strike from uke with multiple strikes while uke stands still and allows it to happen before nage finally finishes with a throw. It just looks wrong to me and sets off alarm bells.
     
  11. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    I thought it was good, any demonstration is fake, but some are better fakes than others.
    and I thought his ukemi skills were good, and the way that he transitioned between moves also..these are things that I personnally haven't seen in Aikido, or very rarely.There are a couple of things that I really hate in aikido and Martial arts generally. The first is the unrealistic ( usually Shotokan ) striking attack from a ridiculously long range, say maybe 30 feet.the second is waiting for an attack and not responding to the threat by attacking the threat.and the third is Uke starting to tell you or worse stop you doing a technique because they don't think that you are doing it right......now in a very technical sense they are right, because if they can stop the technique then it is not good technique...............but it is not good from a fighting perspective, for fighting, if something doesn't work you transition to something else......but back to the original purpose of this thread....I have seldom seen Aikido folks throwing out striking techniques like this guy did.......a bitch slap when you have him in nikkyo:love:....
     
  12. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Ummm ... okay.

    1. work on your sentence and paragraph structure.

    2. you don't need to look too far to find Aikidoka doing ukemi. YouTube is full of it.

    3. I rate a static uke as worse than a distant charging uke. At least the charging uke will run over the top of you if you don't at least step out of the way. The static uke just standing around while you strike in several places too many before finishing with a throw isn't demonstrating much. It's over kill and superfluous to requirements. Strike to weaken and throw.
     
  13. izumizu

    izumizu Banned Banned

    I found it to be a great video, and one that shows a high level of understanding between both partners, and that level of mastery now is a jumping off point to further their progression of martial arts with counters (strikes, resistance/non-compliance, counter techniques...), which I am certain at this level they already practice.

    My only criticisim of this video would be that it was 1990's, and everything is pretty much in color these days, the black and white edit feature was more of a distraction, and thus the video not as enjoyable had it been in color, and in focus.

    As for your criticisims of aikido, I guess I have never seen shotokan with attacks at the 30 feet you describe. Waiting for an attack is not always what it seems, neither is inviting the attack, as far as attacking a threat is concerned, there is no need to attack, it is already being done by the agressors, all that needs to happen now is some type of resolution, and if an attack or "bitch slap" is included in that (and believe me it does happen), then so be it. I can also tell uke (especially in the case of an ineffective attack, or a slow attack) they are also attacking incorectly.

    It takes much time to build the skills of an attacker such that they can come at you full force and take the fall as demonstrated in this video...neither person is holding back. Sometimes with proper movement, no application is needed at all, and in the real world this will likely anger even more those attacking you, and if that is the case, then your skills should be pretty fine tuned for what comes next. Not everything is a fight, and different people have different concepts of what fighting is, as an aikidoka, I have the luxury of not having to subscribe to any of it.

    But still a very nice video, thanks for posting.

    P.S. I often use the "bitch slap" (I call it a strike to the face with the first two knuckles of my fist) not when I have uke in nikkyo (if you already have it, then why use a strike that causes you to release nikkyo, when you could easily follow through with a couple of rips and break to those joints, tendons?), but instead I may use it as I am already moving into nikkyo, it is quite easy to do, and then simply move into nikkyo...if it is still applicable, if not, then yes a transition is again needed. If I am going to transition from nikkyo to something else, then I would deem time of the essence and in all probablility would not use those precious miliseconds on a strike, but would merely move toward that transition...not one of my choice, but one that already presents itself to me in the situation (perhaps my nikkyo was not effective, perhaps our hands and arms are especially sweaty, perhaps the attacker is jacked up on angel dust and would rather be thrown head first into a cynder block wall).

    But then again, it is all about transition. The longer you practice, the more transition you make not just in technique, but in stages of learning as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2010

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