This thread is about how aikido teaches striking, not a thread to quibble over language. You have repeatedly dragged the thread off topic, and pointing out that other members respond to the posts that are derailments does not excuse your continuing to do so. You've been asked by two topic mods to stop derailing the thread. Your responses have been argumentative, despite the fact that starting a new thread of your own would be both simple and reasonable. I'm asking you now to stop derailing this thread. If you do not, I will ban you.
interesting video about yokomenuchi. was poking around on youtube and found this. goes to what koyo is saying a couple posts back. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwylQqUsyRs&feature=related"]YouTube - Shoji Nishio Shihan: Yokomenuchi[/ame]
Excelent demonstration of aikido done empty handed as though using a weapon. Thank you so much Giovanni for posing this. regards koyo
Bill, When I teach atemi to a complete beginner, I have to start off with gross motor-skills. Obviously, it's not something that can be learned in one lesson, so it has to be taught gradually so that the student can internalize the movement, theory and then work on the more important aspects of targeting, speed, power generation, timing and distance. The application of certain atemi are based on function and primary objective; some are percussive, where others are controlling the balance. A number of these atemi are based on short sword usage, so just to give them hints of usage, I demonstrate them using the kodachi. We're having an extra long keiko this week as I'm off to Japan soon. Will probably run to about six or seven hours. Jujutsu, kenjutsu, iaijutsu and we're finishing off with tameshigiri. For some of these people, it'll be their first time to do any active cutting. I'll be a lot stricter than before on them, since they'll be using live weapons.
Beast wishes for youe traing/teaching. At the moment one of my students/friends is about to introdice aikido to fellow workers. As you say basic fundamental principles shall be the most important
One of my favorite striking methods that I teach in aikido is double striking. This is very different from the typical 1,2 punch. Essentially it is delivered while entering to uke side or oblique (though could just as easily be delivered in tenshin/back movement), and entails both hands moving towards target and striking within rapid succession of eachother. So, if I am in left hamni, the right (back) hand starts out striking a shomenuchi (this shomen is more direct than what we usually practice, and strikes to the front of the uke head), as I slide in remaining in left hamni. Trailing just miliseconds behind is the left hand that strikes a yokomenuchi which strikes to the temple, ear canal, or jaw line. Of key here is that one hand starts slightly before the other, and that the strikes begin with explosive power, and land with cuncussive force, one shortly after the other. It is quite a powerful striking technique, though since both hands are used (basically leaving the body open), the timing must be exact, and the strikes must be delivered very quickly. It also helps if you can maintain the strikes in a slight time on target fashion as has previously been mentioned in this thread by myself and other members, so that both hands remain just miliseconds after the second strike makes contact.
We used something similiar to set up Ikkyo (ude osae?) or Iriminage when uke's hand was high (shomen).
The problem that most folks have with Aikido and striking is that it is often inferred that aikido has a definite striking method. Striking is usually refered to as "atemi Waza"............~Now when I was in the Aikikai. In the membership book there were quotes from Ueshiba in one he said that "Aikido is 90% Atemi".......now when I compare that with my training, I can honestly say that very few people knew how to strike, and there was an awefull lot of rubbish talked. Now the way that I see it is twofold, there definitly are techniques which are set ups.like doing shomen uchi and when uke goes to do something like ikkyo you then do ikkyo yourself, and this will work for a number of techniques, personnally I would use a backfist or a hammerfist in preferance.and of course if the guy doesn't see this then he gets a very strong and painful hit and problem solved But there are other considerations and one of them is the nature of violence........when you face violence you get hit by the chemical cocktail and many believe that fine motor skills such as deftly applied strikes ,go out the window and you can only use gross motor skills, such as wild swinging blows....now as I've shown before Aikido has them already, they are studied widely,,,,,,,,but folks don't see them INMHO in the way they should....................bare in mind also in a streetfight you have one worst enemy......and his name is "concrete".....shomen ate done on a concrete mat will result in death.........when all's said and one though, if you don't understand what you are traing ,why and how and the potential consequences of what you do.you shouldn't be doing it
Sadly too true. TOO many do it for ego,mysticism.amd money. Real training is hard and demanding. That is why many leave hard training schools and too many stay in "friendly" classes. backfist and hammer fist?..love them both.
Atemi waza could refer to striking arts that pre-date Aikido, karate, etc. For instance, what was used by monks in Japan five hundred years ago. The point is the term is very old but it can still be used today as it was hundreds of years ago. I was shown some pictures of how atemi-waza knowledge was passed down hundreds of years ago in some places. The techniques and experiences were passed down from family member to family member, generation to generation, but this was NOT done with written descriptions. Instead, what was passed down in writing were pictures and principles. So there may be a principle stating "eyes first" in writing, but there were no written techniques... all the technique that could apply to this principle was passed on in person. Although their might be some pictures showing events that might demonstrate how things were done, this was not written instruction of the details. People today seem to be very technique oriented and sometimes this creates impractical application because the principles are not understood or are just plain ignored. Techniques are just demonstrations of principles in a particular context. Sometimes we might say a technique is to set up another technique, but the reality is that something is done and based on the outcome of that action, we adapt and followup with what comes next. This should allow for unlimited response, not be restricted to the confines of a technique. A setup to me is just something that puts you in the right place at the right time to take advantage of opportunities that present themself. To attack the face and jawline puts your hands in the position that could allow you to apply an armbar technique WHEN uke's elbow is raised. Just IME. What you say about gross motor skills is not really true in my experience. I think what you said is a nice way of explaining things in general but what I have found is that people revert to "instinct" when under high stress. So anything that falls outside of what is "natural movements" will not work as well. More specifically, I've come to use the terms "losing structure" or "maintaining structure". When someone is using what we call gross motor skills, they are actually reverting to the level of "structure" that is at the instinctive level for them. For example, people might tense up and when they punch they might end up using mostly their arms and shoulders (resembling wild swings). This is inefficient. Someone who maintains structure, on the other hand, would still be able to punch using more of their whole body power and be better rooted. There is a whole area of training in all martial arts that is in building proper structure that is based on natural movements so that when you are under stress, you maintain this structure. This does in fact take a very long time... a friend of mine says he can teach someone hard style to fight in a few years, but to teach the proper structure which starts on day one of soft style training will take at least ten years to get them to fight the same as a few years of hard style. So people like me that train in hard style methods of training, from day one, still must build our structure in something like soft style that can take a decade or more, IMHO. This is a progression.
ok well I would say that in any event were one feels at risk then there is always the possibility that you will lose fine motor skills, it's not inevitable, but it is highly likely...............and to a point you can get around this by training, but it has to be a very specific type of training. I like the old ways, the first level is "milling" when you have two guys just hitting each other with anything they can, then you get more specific and start trying to train something.I like to get one of my sons to put boxing gloves on and then just let him go at me with everything......it is very difficult to control at first, but you will see openings in which all of the major Aiki techniques will present themselves, but maybve not in the way you would see them in a dojo, I guess that you will see principles, and those principles will not just relate to Aiki.they may relate to Aiki and other things that you have studied. I have experienced the chemical cocktail on several occasions.but not necessarily in a MA situation.getting wheeled down to surgery will definitly get your bottle going.............with Aiki I have found similar principle in Tai-Chi, in escrima and in Wing Chun, basically the same technique, but just thought of in a different manner
You bring up good points. I actually was saying something a bit the opposite of the way you are saying things. What I mean is that a very long time was spent training the "structure" or fundamentals in the beginning and very little time was spent in something like "milling." This is the opposite of milling at the start. For instance, the method would be to spend many hours each day training only in a few techniques to condition the body. Such as training just in a one knuckle punch. Everything about conditioning the body as a weapon for the one knuckle punch including makiwara training and using training tools such as a pole across the shoulders to ensure proper body alignment. Working on the harmonies between the shoulders and hips, the elbows and knees, and the hand and feet. Working the pivot points, the rotational forces, and the power from the center through the ground. Something like "milling" would come after this, but would be very limited, for example, milling but only allowing the one knuckle punch to be used. Free fighting would not come until much later to ensure that no "bad habits" were learned. So in free fighting, structure would be maintained. At first maybe 50%, but in time 80% or better struture will be maintained in free fighting. This is what I meant by old way of passing on techniques from generation to generation...
Quote "You bring up good points. I actually was saying something a bit the opposite of the way you are saying things. What I mean is that a very long time was spent training the "structure" or fundamentals in the beginning and very little time was spent in something like "milling." ok well this is just my viewpoint..you can do what you say, no question..........but........what I have found is that something like milling will give me what I think is the correct perspective. you see you are taking thinks back to a very basic level. in my case I wasn't testing Aikido principles I was testing Wing chun sticking hands.....and you see things. like Irimi nage is very good for avoiding a very confrontational attack, in fact it's very good on a great many levels..and also there is a crossover in different martial arts, and you can see where they are coming from. the difficulty that I see in your approach is that you are answering the question before it is asked..I noticed immediately that there were lots of techniques that were not invalid, but rather less vaild than others......I think that you may find this in aikido also.in fact you may find things totally different to what i found there is some stuff that is "bread and butter" that you really can't ignore, other stuff which some folks can make work...and other stuff that looks great in demos.................but that is just my experience, yours maybe totally different
When I teach..I teach the beginner body escape and alignment against an attack just hard and fast enough to keep him out of his comfort zone. ALL he is learning is body alignment NO techniques. Only after he has learned how NOT TO GET HIT do I take him on to unbalancing the attacker. Even then he is told the techniques are not effective (except atemi) I may teach some self defence which is 90% atemi. What I hate to see is guys performing techniques in their first classes.
I think you are on the right track but what you are addressing is at a different complexity level than what I'm targetting my statements for. Just to be clear, I cross-trained in Aikido for a few years around 15-20 years ago. I was a black belt in Karate then. I have cross-trained in BJJ off and on since 1998. I actually teach Kajukenbo and Muay Thai. Long story short, I think I get what you are talking about with milling... basically aliveness in training. When I'm referring to a technique here, I'm meaning only something simple like a front kick, a one knuckle or two knuckle punch, a vertical elbow, an open hand slap or ridge hand, or hammer fist, etc. I'm not talking about anything more complex like sticky hands or iriminage. IME, there is the perfection of body mechanics which I call structure. This is in building a good structure so that the movements are effective AND natural. On the other hand, there is the experience of being in a pressure situation... walking the walk as I call it sometimes. Then there is the combination of maintaining structure IN a pressure situation. So the building of structure, say for an elbow strike, is done methodically to condition the whole body. This is passed down from teacher to student... IF THE TEACHER does not know how to teach the proper structure... the end result will be flawed. This could be years of garbage in and garbage out. IME. It all starts on day one to reduce the bad habits. There are plenty of good teachers/coaches out there that know and can teach good fundamentals and body mechanics... but this is NOT perfected over night. There is no way around hours/years of hard dedicated work to get there. On the other hand, there is the need for gaining experience in pressure situations. This would be as koyo mentioned, with no particular technique, just experiencing the fundamentals of body alignment and principle of do not get hit while being pressured by an opponent. This would be at the level just above the comfort level. In BJJ this could be rolling at half speed or in boxing something like milling at half speed, or pushed even faster depending on the comfort level and safety concerns. This is also a test of and developing of fighting spirit. Then there is a combination of the above where the two are tested together. This could be what some call pressure testing. It could be in full speed sparring or in the ring, or in real world when something goes wrong. The combination is the closest to real fighting if not a real fight, which it could be. This is not the time to learn, it is the test of what you have learned. After it is done, you can come out of it with a lesson, but that lesson applies to the first two training methods of perfecting structure (body mechanics) and working in a pressure environment (experience and fighting spirt), whatever you find you are lacking in and whatever you find you are strong in but can be improved.
Quote "IME, there is the perfection of body mechanics which I call structure. This is in building a good structure so that the movements are effective AND natural. On the other hand, there is the experience of being in a pressure situation... walking the walk as I call it sometimes. Then there is the combination of maintaining structure IN a pressure situation. " Ok well firstly understand that I am not disagreeing with you, but different martial arts have different structure. One of my Chun friends talks of the "classical disconnect" which he sees in some martial arts , as the martial art is taught it loses some of it's original concepts.....I'm sure that Koyo would agree with me on this...........not all Aikido is the same, and this applies to many arts. now "walking the Walk" as you describe it, well IMHO you cannot always be consistant with this, if you look at it not from a martial arts viewpoint, but very generally you will see some things that really frighten you and some that don't...........I have had major surgery a few times and boy was I scared other things don't bother me, I'm frightened of heights but I've been in a single engined plane and done acrobatics, wasn't scared one bit..last violence sort of thing was a road rage incident last year when a guy got out of his car and stood in the road in his shirt sleeves shouting at me LOL..........I said get back in yer car D'head , and he did .......but really what I mean is that it is good to have some tools in your tool box which are effective and certain and which you can use when the brown stuff hits the big whirly thing...............I think Aiki has some of those.....I don't think that they would look like what most folks think Aiki should look like, I don't think that most Aiki folks practise them the way that I see them......and if you take Irimi nage as an example.it's cool to move to the side and re direct.BUUUUUUUUt you can just smash him in the face with your forearm, the angle timing etc doesn't have to be that perfect to really hurt him.and if you want to really cause some damage, then just drop to your knees when you do it:evil:
Cut through his centre of balance. After fifty years plus..that is all I think of if I have to fight seriously. That is all I thought when I HAD to fight seriously because I workd in bad areas of Glasgow. Simple as that.
