How does aikido teach striking?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Mitlov, Sep 5, 2010.

  1. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    This came up in the Aikido in MMA thread, and I thought it deserved its own thread. A couple of the experienced aikidoka here made the point that, at an advanced level, Aikido is primarily a striking art. I suspect I'm not alone in having the preconception/misconception that aikido was primarily a stand-up grappling art that's focused on throws and joint locks, because that's the aikido I've seen. And when I thought about it, I realized I'd never seen aikidoka training in atemi, so I didn't know the training methodology.

    So what methodology is used to teach atemi? Is it a karate-esque training with lots of repetition of strikes against the air and against a makiwara board? Is it more like modern MMA, boxing, or Muay Thai training with lots of padwork and sparring with protective gear? Or is it something else entirely?
     
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    In my dojo, we start in a static place. So let's start with tsuki kotegaishi. First you get the feeling of avoiding the attack and performing the technique. Then when the basic movement is down, we start practicing the points of atemi: evade, punch side, head, throat, whatever.

    Another good example, shomenuchi ikkyo. Again evade then get the basic ikkyo movement down. Then once the basic shape is learned, evade, get the arm bar, expose the body to the available knee and hand strikes.

    I have lots more. I'm sure that Koyo also does. Check out some old pictures of O Sensei for more.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Most of the first aikidoka came from judo kendo or karate. That is why crosstraining is valuable.

    I came from Shotokan and Judo when I first took up aikido. The aiki ken and aiki jo has us executing thousands of cuts and strikes with those weapons seacking Ki Ken/Jo Tai Ichi.

    Meaning that any strike is done with powerfull intention entire body movement as one.

    The boys at the makotokai crosstrain and engage in circuit training to develope stamina.

    Unlimited responce is also a principle of aikido in a serious confrontation.

    Below you can see mae geri when a lock was resisted and a punch to counter the kick/knee as I closed with him.also a footsweep when it was a natural responce.

    Timing, accuracy and attack along the line of the attacker's attack is from swordsmanship.Many thousands of suburi makes the forearm powerfull and flexible.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  4. Anth

    Anth Daft. Supporter

    I'm doing right when resorting to mae-geri? Smashing :D

    In answer to the original post, the organisation I'm with works similar to Giovanni's in that the throw/pin comes first then (once your hands and feet know where they're going) the atemi is introduced on a basis of "whatever feels natural". My karate background has me dropping in furi-zuki or empi on uchi techniques (such as katate-tori kaiten nage uchi or ai-hanme sankyo uchi) so that the atemi is used while keeping the flow of the technique.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    How Aikido teaches striking is not the same everywhere.

    I came from a karate background when I started cross-training in Aikido. The closed fist striking was a lot different than what I expected... I think it took me quite a lot of time before I started to figure out what was going on.

    Similar to karate, the striking was strong with the power coming from the whole body, and you had to be very relaxed to gain acceleration like a whip. However, almost everyone in class had very weak technique and rather than work on stronger technique, they were shown to relax even more.

    What took me a while to figure out was that the closed fist striking I was being taught was primarily based on pressure point striking and bladed combat. Unlike boxing or other unarmed disciplines where you need to hit hard enough to stun, a knife takes almost no strength to cut to the bone. Likewise, the idea of pressure point striking is you do not have hit full power to have an effect on the opponent.

    The open hand strikes were relaxed, power strikes, such as an atemi to the head was to take their head off if they did not get out of the way, but the application was to unbalance, unlike karate where the emphasis would be on breaking and stunning.

    Kicks taught were few. Except for the Hapkido folks, I was watching Aikido black belts kicking like karate white belts. The only use for kicking was to counter.

    I believe the atemi taught such as how Koyo describes is just a lot more well rounded than anything I experienced in my Aikido training.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  6. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    So from a different angle, does anyone have any tips on teaching good strong atemi, from uke's perspective.

    One of the biggest problems I've found is not teaching good technique, but getting uke to throw strong attacks that are explosive and powerful, yet honest at the same time - not 'i know what's coming so I'll pull my punch at the last second'.

    Most people when told to commit end up overcommiting and essentially performing a routine - step in, throw fist out, stand still.

    Yet when you tell them to challenge tori they turtle up and stop putting sincerity into their punches.

    When I attack a try to take my partners head off, covering the distance as fast as I can and attempting to not telegraph the strike that's coming, then offering resistance when appropriate (no kuzushi, experienced partner etc)....but trying to get others to do this is really hard.

    Does it just come with time? Is there a way to teach it without scaring people away - keeping in mind most people that start an art like ju jutsu or aikido do so because they lack confidence.
     
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    In the first photo dereck is using the principles of stick and dagger technique to thrust a straight punch at my face. You can see that the power of the body/movement are in the thrust.

    This is one of our major principles that shall be taught to beginners. We emphasise that throws and pins are NOT effective for beginners and the emphasis is simply DO NOT GET HIT and STRIKE to unbalance.(photo1)

    During that time they are taught to strike hard accurate and powerfull.Crosstraining or makiwara are suggested or senior students shall teach them.

    Also blitz attacks are studied example being a BIG fellow throwing a hay maker (photo 2)

    Crosstraining is valuable..in fact the last seminar we attended we were instructing karateka NOT to withdraw the hand to the hip when striking.In the background gerry is showing a better manner of striking. (photo3)
     

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  8. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Hi koyo, thanks for the reply.

    Your answers make perfect sense, but how do you encourage begginers who are nervous to put 'oomph' into their attacks? And how to you emphasise the importance of covering the distance between uke and tori quickly?

    I agree about the classical karate way of chambering a punch....what exactly is Gerry demonstrating in the third photo? Punches need to start from somewhere to gain power....I tend to 'chamber' mine held at the side of my head, so it can protect it as it travels through.
     
  9. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    Its easy for one to get complacent training with atemi in their techniques...particularly because there is so much to work on with nage and kansetsu waza. I was training with a mentor and he gave an assertive atemi. I put my hand up to block, but kind of did so lazily and I got a bloody lip for it. It was a good reality check/reminder to not get complacent.

    The curriculum I study includes atemi as a step in our basic techniques (which are taught in a step by step manner).

    My perception of aikido is that its based on the concept of control. Controlling space, distance, timing, uke, etc. In my opinion atemi, striking, is another tool to achieve these goals. Watching video clips of Shioda Gozo helped me learn this as he controlled his uke with both strikes and typical techniques.

    Anyway, that's just my perception of strikes in aikido.
     
  10. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    Here is a clip with some of the stuff I was speaking of. The big thing is controlling space and tempo of uke...always stealing his balance and disrupting his comfort zone. This was one of Shioda Sensei's speciality. Throughout the 7 min. clip is various atemi. Around 3:37 is an example of ippon ken, which is a vertical punch with the first knuckle protruding. This was something Shioda Sensei was very well known for.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXoMyD50MG0"]Link to clip[/ame]
     
  11. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Archi

    In the photo Gerry is about to strike with his left hand keeping his right in his centreline to be capable of blocking any other attack rather than taking it to his hip.

    We use the kohei, tohei system in that a beginner is encouraged to attack VERY hard and accurate and the senior student covers etc.He will be shown any openings his attack leaves and taught how to attack stronger.

    The basic principle we teach is to get off line and enter to execute a strike and technique.

    Advanced aikidoka shall see ALL of the openings in an attacker and may leave them and simply use one strike to unbalance and then execute the technique.

    However ALL openings are seen and depending on the standard of the attacker the counter may be into any of the openings.

    Below is shiho nage openings. You can see the opportunity for atemi. We usually only take the first opening to lead to the technique.
     

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  12. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned


    I know it's a demo but the ukes in that clip appear to be just falling about on cue. It looks a lot like every aikido vid I've ever seen.

    Does anyone have anything showing aikido or aikidos implementation of atemi against a commited attack? It doesn't have to be sparring it could even be a scripted drill - just something where the uke is showing some intent?
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i love watching videos of gozo shioda. little guy, big heart, bad-ass mofo.
     
  14. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Check out koyo's demonstrations on youtube - mokotokai, if i'm not mistaken.

    Otherwise type in 'Jan de Jong Aikido' to see some of the Yoseikan taught at my school - you'll find plenty of striking from strong attacks.

    Koyo...thanks for the description. Good point about senior students pointing out openings. Instructor can't always be there but if experienced students are showing beginners how to throw stronger attacks, they will always be learning something.
     
  15. izumizu

    izumizu Banned Banned

    --

    I posted this in the other thread, and thought it would find merit here:

    I totally advocate the use of atemi in aikido, it is indespensible. In fact it is trained daily whether aikidoka realize it or not. Unfortunately most aikidoka are only interested in the part of nage/tori and the throwing of uke (and yes nage can also implement atemi), but in the training of uke, which many people fail to understand, or focus on, which with out uke, there is no nage; uke is getting their chance to practice atemi, grabs, holds, chokes (well, a rear choke in anycase), in some dojo kicks, et al.

    As an aikido instructor, it is my responsibility to take an individual, and make them the best attacker I can (focusing on the role of uke), so that when I am recieving their attack, I have something of value to deal with. If I train an individual to do some half hearted attack, and then have them follow me around in a dance style competition, waiting for me to throw them along the way, we have both missed the point, and lost a moment for us to train thoroughly.

    It is a two sided coin tho, the more power and force, and precision that uke comes at me with, the faster and harder is their fall, so at the same time, that person must be able to take said falls and protect their body as well.

    Also, that individual must have the knowledge to keep their body safe while executing an attack. If they strike out, and at the same time leave their body vulnerable, then they are not aware enough of what it is they are doing, or why they are doing it. It is a combination of many facets that make up the role of the attacker, but both uke and nage must be proficient enough in what they are doing in order for the training to be effective.
     
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Perhaps the finest compliment I have had was my ability to throw a relative beginner into a perfect breakfall.

    Others throwing him may have banged him into the mat.

    I was "taught" ukemi simply by being thrown time and time again until I learned.If tori decides..there is no ukemi to a technique.

    Some one who constantly falls before being unbalanced shall be ignored and not allowed to train.

    Below is an ara waza (severe) technique. There is no breakfall for that technique. The only way it can be applied is if I negate it enough, as I have done in the photo.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  17. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Thanks for response and suggestions,

    I had a look at both, but couldn't see what i was after. Do you have any vids of a regular training session where the idea is to put the tori under genuine pressure rather than demos?
     
  18. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    Which brings us to the point of interrupting space and timing by being aggressive with atemi and movement. The attacks are almost all broken up before they reach a climatic range of motion, perhaps that makes it look like there is no intent. However, it is generally considered poor etiquette to attack a senior in a weak manor. Typically many of these techniques work poorly when an attack has no "intent." But granted, this IS a demonstration so its going to be a little different than actual training.

    cheers
    VR
    A
     
  19. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    Here's Thambu. He's more reactionary than Shioda so maybe it seems like his partner is giving more "intent" on his attacks. I mean, they guy is pretty much running at him. The strikes are pretty minimalistic, but that's aikido for you. The first 35 seconds or so are all grabbing techniques so your probably not interested in seeing them.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEmpmHBMgsA"]Link[/ame]
     
  20. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I would say that there is a pivotal difference between 'intent' and supplying momentum. All the vids I 've seen - including the ones in this thread - show ukes with no intent of doing anything other than being struck or locked by the tori and supplying them with the momentum to execute their chosen technique. At times they are not even touched they are just hurling themselves into breakfalls as the tori evades. As you say though that's probably due to them being demonstrations?

    My thoughts on this video are pretty much as above. But thanks for posting it though.
     

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