How do you view Atemi?

I haven't practiced tenchinage yet but from what I understand the 'atemi' in that technique would be when you cross over their shoulder and 'clothesline' them. I would hardly consider that a strike unless done aggressively, which we don't really do very often. But I see how those strikes could be Atemi. Our school just does things very softly

When I say mind screw, I do mean that pushes / pulls that Aikido uses.. our instructors like to take a very 'mystical approach' and explain a lot of techniques as being backed by Ki... Don't know where the sucker punch thing came from, haha. My point being is that Ki Aikido takes a very nice approach and often relies on Uke being compliant, which is why I consider much of it to be ineffective.. unless applied correctly or in a more realistic manner. I should've clarified.

Chopping techniques do seem to go well with Aikido but in terms of Atemi on it's own, I feel that knife hand strikes (or the type) aren't enough but the inclusion of palm strikes and other open handed techniques allow for more of a diverse striking style.

 

re: clothesline: i think he means iriminage.

my perspective about strikes in grappling arts: you don't need a lot of training to hit someone right (even if it might not be the best strike ever). the fact that your style is based on grappling doesn't prohibit you from punching someone in the nose, so even if your style has no formal striking techniques (and aikido has them, as well as old-school judo, for example), that doesn't mean there's no striking in it, it just means it's not trained extensively. it's not your martial art that fights, anyway, it's YOU, and YOU can do whatever the hell you want.

 

I guess I imagined doing heaven and earth more dynamic would turn into a 'clothesline' kind of takedown but I could be mistaken. I'm testing for 4th Kyu next week so I haven't done much other than the basics and a few advanced techniques.


And I agree with most of the posts in here. I think my concern about atemi is that it seems like a lot of Aikidoka believe that in order to strike (and strike to win) you have to cultivate an agressive attitude which can then contradict the softness of Aikido in a sense.. but be crucial to survival.

My instructor, for example, said something along the lines of "it looks a lot better when the police arrive on the scene and you have the guy in a lock with no damage done as opposed to beating him up" which in a legal standpoint, looks perfect but it's never that easy. A few of the guys I train with seem to have this misconception that the attacks we train to defend against as nage are the attacks we'll see on the street. Personally, I've never seen a criminal try to judo chop someone from 5+ feet away. And I seriously doubt keeping one point and keeping relaxed will be done very successfully in a violent encounter.

I guess it's this misconception that lead a lot of our guys to believe that strikes aren't necessary or at least make them view strikes as almost barbaric.

 

There's nothing in Aikido that says you can't use other strikes. My former teacher explained everything in terms of ki as well. But there was no mysticism as such.

Ki is energy. By that I mean kinetic energy or centrifugal force etc. And quite often Ki refers to your mental state and it's relationship with the body.

 

I guess it just depends on the instructor. I have very limited experience in Aikido (just tested for 5th kyu last month), but most of the instructors I have worked with have stressed strikes. Not just "knife" hand type strikes, but also things likes knees, elbows, and even kicks.

 

I like that definition of Ki better than recent ones. The mystical approach is cool at first but isn't always the best in introducing a technique.

 

Hi Anarch

From reading through this thread it really seems like you're not getting the training you require from this club. Actually, I'd be really concerned about spending time and money at a club which doesn't appear to emphasize any of the martial aspects of Aikido.

Over-compliance, no atemi and "mind screws" = Alarm bells

Have you considered training somewhere else?

 

I'm actually settled up on money with the club for a while so that's not a concern. I'm assuming the huge amount of compliance is for lower ranks but I haven't really seem them train without it so that could continue to be an issue. The reason I'm not being as skeptical as I used to be is that our instructors still receive instruction from the 7th degrees and other higher belts of our organization and from what I've seen, it does get a lot tougher as you progress (or it seems to).

And as for the 'mind screw', I think that was just a bad term haha. One of our instructors relies on Ki to explain a lot of things without going into much detail about how the technique is accomplished physically. And as far as training somewhere else, I have to wait a few months until I can travel more freely but I'm gonna try to check out another club a few hours away and see how it compares to my current one so I can at least make a more solid decision. For now, it doesn't seem to be too much of a problem.. at least being a lower rank.


But yes, over-compliance can be an issue and the rather impractical approach at times is a little discouraging but hopefully that'll change with a few seminars or something.

 

It's my experience when a teacher relies on the word Ki too much they are hiding something. Either a lack of knowledge and understanding or a lack of confidence in their own abilities. Whatever it is, it's never a good sign.

I'm not going to tell you where to train. If you're happy where you are and with the training you're receiving then by all means continue. But keep your feet on the ground and honestly judge the training for what it is.

 

Aikido is a relatively new martial art being described with foreign words that are ancient. It will always sound mystical until you break it down and figure out what is actually being demonstrated. What he or she does on the mat is more important that what they say. Most of the time.

Learn by watching and practising.

 

Any instructor who over relies on "ki" when teaching a technique and shies away from proper scientific instruction into how a technique is actually done, should not be teaching in my honest opinion.

It over mystifies aikido to a great length, because they only imitated and never really studied.

 

That seems like it could be the case. It's the second instructor whos 1st Dan. Our head instructor is more practical and to the point. The other one seems to imitate the samurai mindset a bit too much and rely on his mind. For example, during Kokyu Dosa, he talks about dropping your one point even blow theres into the earth and bouncing up to push them back. While it sounds cool, still doesn't explain how to do it. The universe talk is nice when metaphorical but should be excluded to a point when talking about application.. in my opinion.


The same instructor does always prefer the magical approach instead of a straight forward, practical answer. But he's only one teacher and he doesn't mean any harm. He actually believes the stuff, which I imagine could get pretty dangerous if he has to defend himself. I'm sure it'll sort itself out though and I do take a lot of his teachings with a grain of salt since some of it has directly contradicted what others have taught.

Either way, it's fun to learn from different perspectives. Even the disney land ones. Anyways, here's another video from the same guys as earlier. This seems to be the system of striking they prefer. Lot of palm strikes and roundhouses with body shots when wearing less gear. Even some ground stuff at the end. Simple, but pretty practical.



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ1i9Hi6BuA&feature=share"]＜顔é¢æ”»æ’ƒæœ‰ã‚Šï¼žã®ã€Œå®Ÿè·µæ­¦è¡“åˆæ°—é“試åˆã€(覇天会)Aikido game with face attack - YouTube[/ame]

 

That is utter tripe. There are many variations on the Kokyu Dosa/Ho exercise. But I have never practised nor seen any that could be described in that way. I've also never heard an explanation even remotely like it. I can't even comprehend how such a thing could be achieved. All Kokyu Dosa I have done have been kneeling.

Your one point or hara is an inch or two below your belly button. It's literally your centre of gravity. If you're already kneeling it can't get much lower, if at all.

For me personally, Kokyu Dosa was always primarily an exercise in projection. If you can't learn to project your presence and dominate your uke it doesn't work. At least it shouldn't work.

 

By kneeling, do you mean sitting seiza?

And I don't quite get it, either. When he gives an example of lowering one point when already in seiza, I definitely can't see anything and he takes the mystical route when in reality all he seems to be doing is pressing his arms more downward then bouncing them up to knock down his partner.

 

Even that sounds wrong. If it's the particular variant I'm thinking of then you must draw your partner closer by taking up the slack. This is done using the natural weight of your arms and exploiting the mechanics of uke's arms and body. There should be no "perceivable" pressing down or pulling action. It should feel like a natural movement.

To get the "bounce" effect. All you do is release the slack you've taken and then continue that movement as uke should naturally wish to regain his/her posture.

All of which is probably not a whole lot clearer.

 

Well that explains it. The way he was demonstrating it Uke held his arms to the mat so he could drop his one point beyond Uke's mind (at least I believe that's what he said). Once again, though, your explanation is much easier.

 

In that case it sounds like a variation I've never seen. And there are quite a few. Does your club have any videos on-line?

I have done a variation where uke pins your arms to your knees. However dropping your one point there doesn't help (not that I'd know how while in seiza). Instead you should extend through your wrists to move uke. And it is quite difficult if you have a decent uke. Definitely not something I'd have a 4th kyu doing.

Did you say this guy was a first dan? I've always said first dans shouldn't teach.

 

No, we don't but getting more videos would be beneficial for the club come to think of it. And thankfully I haven't been put on the spot to try that technique. I'm still messing with ways of getting a fully resistant partner off balance.


And yes, he is a first dan. Our highest rank is a 2nd Dan and we only have two 1st Dans, which one is new. I know there's a seminar coming up with much higher belts so it'll be interesting seeing the differences in how they teach.

 

I held a seminar in Edinburgh last weekend with Sensei Matt Hill , who is the head of Iwama Aikido in the Uk for Hitohira Saito. He is also a systema student and qualified teacher as well. Part of the theme for the weekend was on Atemi, what it is, how to deliver it and how to receive it within the principles of Aikido, here are some of the points he taught... based on the idea that Aikido is just a set of Principles. Hope it helps at abit at least

• Atemi – the last of the main themes was atemi
• “My aikido is 90% atemi.” O’Sensei
• Atemi is one of the ways of dealing with an attack in aikido:
• Atemi
• Avoid and escape
• Throw
• Pin
• De-escalate before the attack.
• Atemi is very rarely taught in Aikido, most people’s experience of it is through training in other martial arts.
• Aikido doesn’t engage in standing toe-to-toe and trading, blocking blows. We have to think about the attacker behind us.
• We need to make sure that it does not interrupt the natural movement of the techniques.
• We need to be able to have precision in the target areas (muscle not bone)
• A strike is a good placement then a push – just done fast. We did lots of exercises to practice this – push-ups on partners body, fist walks on partners body, striking partners body etc.
• We also need to think about the psychology of receiving a strike. You can’t let it rock you or shake you. This is managed through the breath, relaxing and being comfortable with being hit. You build this this by getting hit in a training environment.

The rest of the seminar notes can be found here
http://www.matthill.co.uk/seminar-with-edinburgh-and-glasgow-aikido/