How do you teach Krav maga without it becoming a complete disaster?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Vinny Lugo, Oct 30, 2016.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Getting used to getting rocked in training first, then address multiple ninjers with guns afterwards, and get used to the issue that some things will never be easy/likely/possible.
     
  2. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    So what you are saying is that Muay Thai is good at training you to actually use the techniques you have learned and not going back to sloppy haymakers if you do it enough.

    So basically after seeing a scenario with several dudes coming at you with guns, you would eventually be able to foresee what would work and what likely wouldn't?
     
  3. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Two nobleman were at a ball and were appraising a visiting duke. The young man says, "What a beautiful and well made sword. I'd wager he's slain many enemies with it." And the old man says, "I should worry more about the dagger in his boot, which is rusty yet sharp and well worn."
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    MT: Yes, good training makes you better at MT.

    SD: Yes, but some situations are so bad, nothing is likely to work.
     
  5. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    I've posted this video before but I think it's a particularly good one on this subject:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGZ4E-qUd1A"]Ryan Hall: Best Martial Art for Self Defense - YouTube[/ame]
     
  6. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

  7. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    If someone is mugging you DON'T attempt to disarm. You hand over your wallet and let them go. Only if there is an imminent and unavoidable threat to you or your party's safety do you engage.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
  8. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Yep most people carry less than £100 in their wallets, credit cards can be cancelled, driving licences replaced why on earth would you bother fighting for your wallet or phone and risking your life?
     
  9. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    The chances of getting mugged in UK at gunpoint are so minuscule, it's not even worth thinking about tbh. Here where I live (Scotland), you actually need a gun licence for Air Weapons such as a bb gun (I kid you not!). If someone is assaulted in Edinburgh on a night out, it makes the newspapers the next morning. I can't imagine down in England it'd be much different? If someone was stupid enough to attempt gun point mugging, he/she would be caught for sure and put in prison for a long time so it'd be worth giving them the wallet just for that!
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
  10. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Definitly the only way to control a situation with a gun is to give them whatever they want.
    Even if an attempt to disarm just had to be made because of no other choice, it would not be anything fancy or a special move. It would simply be what ever needs doing based on whatever is available to do and what's going on at that moment. Not something any one can know until it's happening.

    There's lots of evidence and accounts even clips of people fending off people with guns and knifes in everyday life and all the situations are random and don't involve any of them doing a special move or having done a special system. It's just chaotic struggle and luck, use of the environment, quick thinking and any fundamentals skills they might of picked up in life.....for example a good grip and good hand eye co-ordination, tenacity, intensity, etc.
    Lots go wrong too.

    The point of doing something like, Muay Thai, or boxing, or sub grappling for example is not to do those styles in a SD situation, ....each situation has to be taken as it is and the solution made up on the spot using anything and everything available. If an opportunity to strike, or grapple pops up the fundamentals ingrained will come out better than if nothing had been trained.
    But there there could be an infinite number of totally random things to do instead that suit the situation better.
    One person who is a good boxer could just pick up a chair ,throw it at someone or corner them with it and then smash them in the face continuously any way that suits and not caring how technical or fancy they look. They can box but they don't box...they just use fundamentals of boxing ingrained through training if the opportunity presents itself.

    Another might try to box someone and end up dead. Or do some kind of style or move and end up dead.

    The difference was the mindset. Being totally unbiased and indepentant and in the moment doing what ever needs doing, compared to being biased to a style and trying to do some pre determined special moves or system.
     
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    This isn't really true of any martial art IMHO. The same gets said of Wing Chun, Ninjutsu, etc. But then when you see them train they've got loads of "normal" punches, blocks, defences, kicks, throws and other things that can be trained and tested in exactly the same way that, so-called, "sport" techniques are trained.
    Generally the people just lack the will (because of the egos that will getting a knocking) to try it. So they hide behind the infamous "too deadly to spar" nonsense.
    Simply put if all you ever train really is "eye gouges, fish hooks, kicks to the knees, kicks to the groin" then your art has no scaleable force options and you are likely to run the risk of falling foul of the law when you apply it (if you can even learn how to apply those things in any reliable manner without pressure).
    Open any book of Krav and you'll see punches, blocks, kicks, BJJ stuff etc (Krav tends to borrow from what is in vogue at the time...not sure if this is a good or bad trait).
    Pressure test that stuff and sprinkle in the groin stuff as the cherry on top.
    The one Krav class I tried had you wearing a groin guard as standard at all times so that a signified groin shot (not full power) could be trained.
     
  12. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    With any weapon you don't go for a disarm. A disarm presents itself.

    The other mistake people make is in saying that you disarm the weapon. You don't. You disarm the person.

    Control first, then if it presents itself you can go for the disarm.

    The problem with any disarms is it leaves the weapon on the floor, so sometimes it's better to leave the weapon in the aggressor's hand, which you have control of.


    Here is a video I did as an aid memoir for my students.

    Note at 17 and 59 seconds how I wrap my hands around the opponents weapon hand.

    Now this video is for demonstration only and I have removed all the angulation and physicality from the movement, but hopefully you can see my point. At these two points I have the person and the weapon.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3mdvx2mixw"]Disarms - YouTube[/ame]
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    One thing to bear in mind is that krav was created by the Israeli/Jewish military. As such the gun and knife disarms and defences aren't necessarily intended for 'civilian' muggings or 'social' types of violence where acquiescing to demands is often the safest bet. There have been plenty of examples of Israeli soldiers being attacked with knives at checkpoints. Attacks where defence is the only option because the attacker has no actual demands to go with. It's fight back or die (or other people could die if you flee).
    You can debate the whys and wherefores of the Israeli/palestinian conflict but that's part of the context of why krav is as it is.
    You then probably have to debate whether that context carries over to being outside a south London chippie or being mugged in downtown Chicago or wherever you happen to live.
     
  14. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    and whether they exist because they are really effective or just because they are 1) better than doing nothing 2) meant to instill some sense of confidence in their units.
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Or 3) you tie up the gunman/knife attacker using your krav defense, die in the process but that allows other people to escape or engage the attacker and neutralise them. When a knifeman is rampaging through a Jerusalem marketplace it's better to act than not.
    Although to be honest most of the krav knife stuff I've seen has been fairly reasonable 'cover up the bits you don't want cutting and whack the dude' rather than anything too fancy.
     
  16. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Good point!

    A lot of what I've seen has been bloody aweful but I'm sure some good exists somewhere in it. I was invited to a seminar recently (remi off here) but sadly couldn't make it. Would have been interesting to sample his orgs approach to krav.
     
  17. chucksmanhood

    chucksmanhood Valued Member

    Cheeky.
     
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah...I've got a couple of Krav books that aren't too bad but I've just watched the first video on youtube on krav knife defence and it's not the best. Starts OK with a simultaneous block and punch but then goes downhill pretty quickly when they start transitioning the knife across the body and then disarming.
     
  19. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Maybe here is a good place to ask. Simon posted a video. Can others post some video's with GOOD examples of knife defenses? Doesn't have to be self made, just any clips that are considered good.

    I have been wondering about this for a few weeks. I would really like to see some good video clips on this - approved by experienced members of MAP.
     
  20. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    It's not just a krav issue in fairness. The signal to noise ratio of knife defence in general is pretty uninspiring.

    What I've seen suffers from the usual flaws in energy and realism of attack, scenario of attack, frozen uke syndrome and frequently an apparent total lack of respect for the blade and the brutal cold inhumanity of it all.

    I like STAB a lot - though there are others - as it works from the assumption you are already halfway through being merced to death as you implement it and it is mechanically sound. Most stuff just looks like some neck beard's, Jason Borne fantasy and will get you filled with more holes than pop up pirate.

    [ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-_ZO17yWi7I[/ame]
     

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