Halfswording

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Ben Gash CLF, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I was watching reclaiming the blade today and there were several people half swording without gauntlets, and this was supported by the manuscripts. Were longswords not that sharp?
     
  2. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Hi Ben,

    Swords are certainly sharp enough to inflict devastating cuts when drawn along flesh. The trick is not letting the sword slip, pressuring the flats as much as possible.

    Look at the folowing video, where I'm hauling my instructor around by a sharp blade:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddeL1aw1BkE"]Sword Tug of War - YouTube[/ame]

    I cut myself cleaning that same blade later in the day. It's quite sharp.

    The manuals certainly depict bare-handed half-swording. However, the question remains whether they are shown bare-handed because it's easier to draw and show what's going on, or whether it was actually done. We know it's possible, since modern practicioners have done it. At any rate, even normal leather gloves are sufficient to half-sword with complete safety.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  3. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Just don't be drunk and have butter smered on the blade, then having a nice girl pulling the blade. I did that once, and can vouch that blades that moves cuts.


    When that is said, we don't know for sure excactly how the blades were.

    * what form did the edge have? "u" shaped edge can take more damage, while the "v"-shape is sharper.
    * was there different longswords for different use?
    (hard to say on paintings and drawings how many types of blades existed, we definetly know that there was different shapes of blades both on spears, knives, shortswords and polearms in europe in europe)
    * were the edges sharpened all along the blade, or just in parts of the blade?
    *how did they grip the blade during half-swording?
    (we have experimented with gripping so that no part of the hand actually touches the edge)

    I have a blade with "u"-shape from the middle and out, and I've done some half-swording-sparring with it without gloves, and never cut myself.

    In some manuals, you even see them gripping the opponents blade, so gripping their own cannot be that hard
    http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/Stolenbjorn/Fioregrippingtheblade.jpg

    The experience I have with those techniques, is that they work very well if you do them in the right circumstances:
    *never grab a moving blade! (The enemy should be in a cross with you, and be on the defensive, bewildered and passive)
    *dont hold the blade longer than absoulutely nessecary! (You grab the blade to take the centre, not to disarm, and you then leave the cross with your blade to cut/stab, max 1 second of gripping.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  4. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Know a guy who did it with leather gloves against a carcass. Alot of stitches later he learned that chain gauntlets are preferable.

    The Bear.
     
  5. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    But do we have sources on chain gauntlets? I've not seen any gautlets with mail on the innside? I know they use mail gloves in modern industry, when filleting fish.

    But you have a very good point, it's very different to actually attack something full force and just playing safely through the techniques with a cooperating partner. I'll have to check it out myself :p
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Well, I'm not sure why you would use half-swording unarmoured for a start. The tactical disadvantage is too great. Half-swording is usually used against an armoured opponent also to increase rigidity of the blade to aid with armour penetration.

    I've encounter many Fiore practioners who like to go to halfswording position unarmoured and it's like taking candy from a baby. The only other reason I can see for halfswording is you have gotten in too close to swing the blade or you are fighting in a confined space.

    The Bear.
     
  7. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Yep, Fiore allso shows halfswording in armor, but I had the imagination that gauntlets, mittons and the like didn't have any protection on the innside, more than leather, so if you know any finds or sources that shows metal on the innside, it would be interresting.

    Apart from that, I was talking about grabbing of blades in general (where both fiore and other german stuff shows plenty of allso in unarmoured sections), not only halfswording.

    Well, I have never met you and I've never seen any videos of you in action, so I can only asume you're right. I sometimes use halfswording to enter into close-play with opponents that are weaker than me and on my level on longplay (a bit like when you spearhunt).
     
  8. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Yes but look closely at those circumstances. Understand the direction of force. They don't project the force along the cutting edge unlike many practioners.


    Whatever works for you.

    The Bear.
     
  9. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Agree.

    I's still love to know if you know about gauntlets/mittens with mail covering on the innside!

    -and could you tell more about how the one halfswording with gloves managed to cut himself on a sharp sword; was it from slicing, stabbing or what?
     
  10. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Only modern recreations with the leather stitched to the chain. Armour isn't my thing, I only do blossfechten.

    He thrust into a carcas with a sharp at halfswording position.

    The Bear.
     
  11. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Heh, just prooves that we have to cover all bases! I have never thought about this little detail, your little piece of info have probably saved the innside of my hands. I definately have to test out this, as my group do demonstration cuts and stabs in front of audience with variable types of weapons and armor attached to the (usually) pig-leg.

    My guess is that he used a very sharp, v-edged blade and hadn't really reflected on how he was going to perform the half-swording-stab, and then pushed more with the right hand on the handle than he did with the left hand on the blade, thus cutting his left hand.

    This proves that one have to train as one fights, and one should really work on the basic thrust with a blunt before doing it with a sharp. It allso raises some interresting questions regarding how the blades were sharpened (at least in my head :hat: )

    A -only outer half of the blade was really sharp, the inner half was either blunt or U-sharpened. With blades like that, it doesn't matter if the left hand slides, as it is on a blunt blade (provided you don't overextend and put your hand on the sharp bit) This would make half-swording quite similar to pollaxe/helebard/glaive-sparring, you cut and thrust with the tip, and use the middle-section to parry with. This is allso my personal theory on the greatswords/zweihenders; that they were allmost exclusively used in halfsword-mode, as a sort of all-metal-pole-arm.

    B -the blade wasn't really that sharp, and the sharp edges we get today are the result of re-sharpening in the victorian age, destroying the original edge, leaving us to only guess today. With U-sharpened edges, it takes more to cut, but the edge can withstand more crossing of the blades without getting nicks in it. My blade is U-sharpened, and it's harder to get cut by pressing the blade than with a V-sharpened blade, even if I still can cut pretty nicely with it.

    C -the blades were as sharp as they could be, and people avoided getting cut by gripping firmly on the flat, but avoiding getting into contact with the edge.

    D -there were special-longswords meant for half-swording, that weren't really that sharp, and that was allmost entirely used for thrusting or tripping/hooking with.

    E -people only half-sworded as a desperate meassure, thinking it's better to be cut in the hands and beeing alive than not half-swording and die.


    I'm totally open to A-D, I don't believe in theory "E". My sharp longsword is sharpened acording to theory "A"
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011

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