"Grandmaster" Jae Jeannotte

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by JTMS, Jul 8, 2011.

  1. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    It is relevant to those of us that study Hapkido, directly from its Founder, and are curious as to the claims of those that say they have rank and standing in the art.


    You claim to have no real interest in Hapkido, then insult those of us that do...a sloppy version of DRAJJ? You really don't know the art at all.

    Choi Dojunim claimed to have trained with Sokaku Soke, considering that he was illiterate (Choi Dojunim), having any pieces of paper may have been of little real interest to him - but he knew what he knew.

    And who is being cut down here? All we are asking is a validation of the claims. If you are questioning some of us that DO, ask directly.
     
  2. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I'd imagine something like the Daito-ryu hombu would have records of students, traditional Jpanese arts tend to be good for that sort of thing.
     
  3. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Correct, you have no standing in the art, really, how would you know? Lots of research has turned up some interesting information about Choi Dojunim's 40+ years living in Japan. Have you looked for that information? That's right, you don't have skin to lose....
     
  4. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Good point. Choi Dojunim never even claimed the title Dojunim - he just taught.

    Now, there is an interesting point that has not been brought up here, which is Choi Dojunim's relationship with Jang Im Mok, a Korean with Rank in DRAJJ, who always considered Choi Dojunim his senior in rank.
     
  5. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Sounds dodgy indeed.

    But what is your "lineage"?
     
  6. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i just think you're confusing the points in this thread, and honestly, i don't even really know what you're trying to say.

    anyone can birth an art. you can do it, i can do it. regardless of whatever rank i have in any other art. i don't need authority to start teaching "giovanni's awesome kick ass art".

    the problem arises if i started teaching hapkido (i have a first dan) as a fifth dan, yet when iron_ox for example asks "from where did you get your fifth dan, giovanni?" and all i can show is some made up federation "promotion" that has nothing to do with hapkido (say from the american martial arts federation), well then, can you guess why some people would call shenanigans?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i just realized i sold myself short with the fifth dan. should've gone for at least 9th!
     
  8. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Buy my dvd course for $99.99 and I'll throw in a 9th dan, a cuddly toy, and his and hers bath towels!

    :hat:
     
  9. Twisting

    Twisting Valued Member

    there is enough of a paper trail to show that choi trained in drajj. for example, ueshiba's son mentioned that choi was ueshiba's contemporary and trained in daito ryu. so the founder isn't an invisible man.

    http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=119
     
  10. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Does the certificate colour coordinate with the towels? Since both would be hung in my outhouse...
     
  11. jitz

    jitz New Member

    I Meant no disrespect to those that train Hapkido. I am guessing what I am trying to find out is what gave the founder the athority to teach anything and give rank.

    From what I have seen, in what the Aiki-jujitsu guys claim, is there is no record of the founder Choi training with Takeda. I only trained Aiki-Jujitsu for a short time so I am by far not an expert. I have moved to other arts.

    From what I have read on here however, it is like everyone gangs up on someone. I have seen it a few times. I guess what I am training to say is that what gives the right, but I see now. Thank you. I will go back to the BJJ and Judo forums.
     
  12. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Hello,

    Again, what is said is that is no formal record of Choi Dojunim receiving rank from Takeda; however Jang Im Mok considered Choi Dojunim his senior, by a large margin from the conversations that took place - but that is fodder for another thread.

    Gangs up? Explain that please - it has taken years for people to see Choi Dojunim as the founder of the art of Hapkido, and when people use the name Hapkido with no connection to him...especially with high rank, it makes some of us bristle.

    Speaking of which...do you ask the same questions of Gracie and his 10 dan rank?? Meada certainly ranked him that high did he?
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I think there is a big difference in the examples though. Choi Dojunim is recognized by all Hapkido students as "the" founder. There is a lot of debate over the evolution of the art (e.g. some consider GM Ji Han-jae as the 'founder' of modern hapkido), but if you train in any "kwan" that claims to be any sort of "Hapkido", it MUST follow roots back to Choi Yong-sool Dojunim. As an art that really isn't that old, that connection should NOT be hard to establish. When people cannot, that's what raises 'red flags'.

    The distinction is that Choi Yong-sool Dojunim (and his students) created an art that was recognized as distinct from DRAJJ and has stood the test of time as a successful 'new art'. The link to DRAJJ has been downplayed and noone was given rank in that art through Choi Dojunim (that I know of).

    In the case of the OP asking GM Jeanotte what his lineage is, it should have been an easy answer for a 10th dan - the art isn't that old and isn't that large. Most more senior practitioners know most of the senior ranked people and where they come from. Someone claiming that high of a rank should be able to answer it quickly and there should be a bunch of people around that can back it up.


    Well, in a way it's true. The HKD family likes to squabble over lineage and scandals and what "Hapkido" subset really is the ultimate 'pure' group, but when you get down to it, there are some good HKDin here and good conversations to be had. Granted, once you put their back up with expressions like "sloppy DRAJJ", you have to expect some push-back.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
  14. Twisting

    Twisting Valued Member

    lol. you come to the hkd forum, question the legitimacy of the person who founded hkd, then start crying about 'gang ups', when actual hapkido practitioners (yes there are more than 1 here) disagree with you.

    i'll give you the vast benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't trolling. however, if you are questioning legitimacy, which branch of daito ryu did you learn under?

    also, as iron ox asked, how did helio gracie get his higher dans, when carlos taught him, who in turn was taught by a judoka named maeda?
     
  15. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    nobody's ganging up on you. you made a statement that was questioned. we attempted to have a discussion about it. you went away.
     
  16. jitz

    jitz New Member

    I did not think anyone was ganging up on me and I did not go anywhere except sleep. What I meant was all you hapkido guys gang up on each other which I find curious. This guy that the thread is about, the guy that "founded" combat hapkido and others. My point is, if the founder of Hapkido has no paperwork on his field of study, then why does the students of the founder get on people that do not have paperwork. This guy on this thread from what I read on here has no hapkido training so I see why you would call "fake". The founder of combat hapkido did train hapkido, yet I see thread after thread on this forum and others on him being a fake system.

    I did do research on Jang Im Mok as Iron_Ox suggested. I found where his name was in the Daito ryu circles and confirmed by a well know Aikido historian Stanley Pranin. However, there is no mention of Choi being in the Daito Ryu circles or even being a student of that system. The only think I found linking the founder to Jang Im Mok that was not writen by Iron_Ox is that the two met once in Korea and did not like each other. I mind you I did not put a whole lot of time into the search and I plan on looking it up again when I get a chance. If you can find a place where it is documented that the founder trained in that system, please pass it along. If someone knows a like where Mok and Choi were training together or where Mok called Choi his Sr., please pass that along as well. I am now kind of curious on the history of hapkido.

    Thank you.
     
  17. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Jits the issue is that if you say you studied Hapkido and claim to teach Hapkido but you haven't and you don't then you are a liar. It's plain and simple.
     
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i think we're talking around each other a bit.

    so let me ask you, what authority gave morihei ueshiba the privilege to rank people in aikido? aikido never existed.

    i think i understand what you're getting at. but i disagree. choi had all the authority he needed, himself, to teach hapkido, the art he founded himself. the little i know of drajj, hapkido is not drajj.

    and to your point about combat hapkido... yes, everyone has their own thoughts about what constitutes "real" hapkido. and there have been some pretty lively discussions about combat, sin moo, hankido, tactical etc. etc. combat hapkido is recognized as an official kwan by the kido hae though.

    cheers.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    The difference would be if Choi Dojunim was offering rank in DRAJJ, people might want to know where his authiority comes from - does he have a rank from Takeda Sokaku or a menkyo kaiden in the art? (Some sources claim that he did but lost them on a train). In this case, it doesn't matter because he founded his own art - now anyone who claims rank in "his" art needs to have a clear line to him.

    The reason people are interested is because Hapkido has become a world-recognized art that people want rank recognition in. If I formed my own art, let's say Tomaseh-do and claimed it as anew art, anyone claiming rank in it would have to have a line to me. They might say, well, it's a mix of Taekwondo and Hapkido so if I study those arts I can claim a 4th dan in Tomaseh-do... in that case, their claim is off - it's didn't come from me. The same with Hapkido - if I claim rank in it, there should be a line to the founder.


    That may or may not be true - people are merely questioning what his lineage is. Someone of that stature should have an easy time of showing a paper trail.

    Yeah - GM Pellegrini stirred up a lot of people through the years and the reasons for that are grist for many other threads.

    At the same time, if you presented the same questions to him, he could show his lineage directly back to Choi Yong-sool Dojunim. So, whether or not people see his system as "valid" or not and whether or not they see his skills as "Hapkido"-enough or not, he does have the paper rank trail to prove his lineage.

    As a (Combat) Hapkido instructor, so do I. If someones asks me for it, I share it freely. It may or may not indicate the quality of my skills, but it tells other HKD people immediately what branch I studied under and gives a general level of insight in how I practice the art.
     
  20. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest


    Hello,

    Documented history of the art comes from people like me...NOT trying to be arrogant at all. But I have been researching Hapkido since before Choi Dojunim died...and it is still very much a living history.

    There is some information about Jang Im Mok, but not much. Mainly pictures.
    Most of the Koreans I have spoken to call his material "Ki Hap Do".
    Some very good stories are being documented about his relationship with Choi Dojunim.
    There are a few of us that have been documenting a lot of history....

    As far as documenting a paper trail...

    Its fine to have paper going to Choi Dojunim, but in my opinion, if the highest rank one has is first dan, it is difficult to justify giving anyone a 9th dan, as an example. But that is fodder for other threads.
     

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