Dry Needling?

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Zinowor, Apr 9, 2014.

  1. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    What is this?

    I went to a physiotherapist (went to a doctor first ofc), had him check my hamstring and shoulder injury and he told me that he wanted to treat me with Dry Needling.

    I'm already pretty suspicious of physiotherapists, but when he mentioned Dry Needling I can only imagine my face looking like this

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Anyway, I'm just curious to know whether this method is legit and/or if I should find another physiotherapist.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Proponents say it's different from acupuncture. Regardless, the scientific data supporting its benefits is hazy at best. Consider it a form of holistic therapy and stay clear imo.
     
  3. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    Figured as much.
     
  4. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    It's a tough call.

    Dry needling is one of the methods used by doctors/physios to try and de-activate trigger points in muscles. Sometimes people will inject an anaesthetic, saline or just needle. Other ways to settle the trigger points are deep pressure (massage or foam rollers), topical anaesthetics (flourimethane was typically used but it's not used much now because it damges ozone) and stretching using post-isometric relaxation.

    If you read the Manuals by Dr's Travell and Simons then there is western based research to support it's use but like most research in physical medicine there is too little and it is often not sufficiently stringently done to be sure that it is effective.

    You can also look at the work of a neurologist Dr Chan Gunn who has done extensive work with the Worker's Compensation Board's using dry needling as a way of trying to reduce senstivity in previously injured muscle tissue.

    Hope that gives you a bit of insite op. I am not one who does much of this but I know a number of diffferent professionals who say it works quite well.

    LFD
     
  5. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    So uhm, after having gone through 3 physiotherapists who all recommended dry needling, I went ahead and gone through with it. He explained why this and why that for each and every of my questions which gave me a very positive feeling about it and was the only reason I went ahead with it.

    He did it in 3 different spots to start with and gave me the advice to be more active, since I have a sitting job and strongly recommended I lightly stretch everyday for 30 seconds at a time.

    It stings a little here and there and it's supposed to bruise a little tomorrow. I'm going back next Tuesday and he wants me to keep track of my condition. I hope my nightmare of being karate deprived is going to end with this.
     
  6. Dale Dugas

    Dale Dugas My door is always open

    Most of the people who use Dry Needling take a weekend course versus a Licensed Acupuncturist who has a Masters Degree and over 4000 hours of training.

    All of the injuries claimed by Acupuncture accidents actually have been Dry Needling accidents by PT's who have very little training.

    My advice would be to seek out a professional who has more in depth training.

    I do not cause bruising or pain from my treatments.

    Why would you trust yourself to someone with very little training over someone who has thousands of hours of training?
     
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Dry needling is just acupuncture without the nonsense. Why on earth do you need 4000 hours of training to carry out acupuncture on someone? Sounds like a justification for overcharging to me.
     
  8. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Came here, thought it was about coniferous bonsai. Getting my forums mixed up in my old age. :[
     
  9. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i wouldnt be as suspicious of physios as i would be of acupuncturists and chiropractors

    oh god chiropractors...

    the physios ive gone to and that have done dry needling or acupuncture have all discussed the evidence with me and admitted they believe it was mostly placebo.
     
  10. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Dry needling trigger points makes a lot more intuitive sense to me than acupuncture does.
     
  11. Dale Dugas

    Dale Dugas My door is always open

    Good luck with your Physio or PT or Chiro with 16 hours of training in needling.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2014
  12. Dale Dugas

    Dale Dugas My door is always open

    I wish I could have a weekend 16 hour course so then I can start doing physical rehab on patients.

    That is what many PT, Chiros here in the USA are doing with dry needling.

    Though not all.

    Most MDs are required to have a 300 hour course.

    Why if MDs need a 300 hour course to needle people would you want anyone to touch you with a weekend course under their belts?

    There is a reason you want someone with a Masters Degree and 1000s of hours of training to help you.

    They have been fully trained versus someone who has been exposed to a very little portion of a complete system of healing.

    That you think people with little to no training is okay is astounding. Would you trust your health to someone with that little training? That is what you are saying with your statements here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2014
  13. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    A physiotherapist has already undergone years of training.
    You have sources for any of that?
    What reason?
    They're not carrying out a complete system of healing. They are performing a very specific treatment.
    No and that's why I avoid alternative medicine like the plague.
     
  14. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Personally speaking, I'd trust people with 300 hours training in acupuncture as much as I'd trust someone with 32 hours.

    Edit: Paging user Wooden Hare, this is about to get real. :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2014
  15. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    im stepping out of this conversation as i can see the storm coming due the users very differing stances

    to OP - Due to his profession, Late for Dinner's stance is the main one to consider

    i would like to say that im quite against "oriental" medicine as the rigour involved in testing tends to be rubbish with "alternative medicine". theres is no evidence to the contrary to my statement and until such time my stance will not change regardless of any forum discussion.
     
  16. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I am no doctor but according to my own MD, acupuncture works for my condition. I was hesitant at first but he showed me US medical research and some pamphlets, so I tried it. Worked great for my herniated disk pain, the copay was cheap, my therapist was licensed with the state (two states actually and had a lot of out of state clients), and much nicer and had a better bedside manner than my orthopedist. A lot of folks I've met don't trust acupuncture because of what they read online, but most doctors seem to support it, which I find backward but oh well. It worked for me.

    Never heard of dry needling but my guess it works as my doctors have said on the same principle, a sort of "networked" stimulation of the skin and muscles. My MD said it was sort of like how tickling makes your body react pleasurably...acupuncture makes your body react to reduce pain.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2014
  17. nefariusmdk

    nefariusmdk Valued Member

    It's hard not getting into politics when talking about Dry Needling vs. Acupuncture. For example, in New York acupuncturists cannot even call themselves doctors, whereas in California acupuncturists can take insurance, and are considered primary care physicians.

    Basically, Dry Needling takes the concept of acupuncture, and explains it from a modern medicine point of view. MDs, DOs, and other health practitioners can take a 3-6 month course that condenses 4000 years worth of Traditional Chinese Medicine study. I've even seen DYI dry needling posters to help people do it themselves.

    My problem with dry needling is that the people who offer dry needling claim it is just as good or better than acupuncture. In the worst cases, they say it IS acupuncture. Dry needling is giving acupuncture a bad name, and modern medicine, insurance companies, and state laws make acupuncture out to be some forms of pseudo science. Acupuncture has been around much longer than modern medicine, but it is not held in the same respect as modern medicine - and this primarily due to the politics of medicine.
     
  18. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    No, it's due to the to the evidence based approach of medicine.
     
  19. nefariusmdk

    nefariusmdk Valued Member

    This is exactly what I mean. Is the evidence based approach of modern medicine the standard in which all, including holistic, alternative, and natural medicine, must be measured by??

    Traditional Chinese Medicine is its own complete entity, with its own history, methods, and science separate from "Western" medicine. Both of these types of medicine have their own limitations, and it is by understanding both that they can complement each other in helping the sick.
     
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes. If people are claiming to treat ailments, they must show evidence that their treatments work. Does that not sound reasonable to you?

    I hear this shtick a lot from the alternative/complimentary crowd. It doesn't cut it for me, and it reeks of cop-out. The age of something is often brought up too, as if time somehow confers validity. It doesn't, people have believed all kinds of guff for millenia. We're not too bright, truth be told.

    If something does what it claims to do, then why should demonstrating that prove problematic?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014

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