Yes, this point was made at the beginning of the discussion. I think the question is more general in that "does Aikido's grappling stem from Chinese grappling." Well that was my take on it.
I think that when grappling in armour the samurai would have to attack those areas that were vulnerable, the wrist the elbow, neck and knee, all areas where flexibility was needed. There is little point in striking and armoured warrior hence the lack of atemi. Now if the enemy is unarmoured then strikes would of course be added. I think that martial arts developed from necessity rather than from some group, then copied by others.You fight against whatever the enemy has with the tools at your disposal. If you look at the locks throws and strikes they are universal.Neither japanese or chinese. Check out the medieval dagger thread and you shall see identical techniques developed by cultures that had never met. regards koyo
Guys, The debate concerning Chinese influence on aikido has been raging over on Aikiweb and Aikido Journal for some time. It is an interesting debate including technical and historical evaluation. I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't practice aikido but from the standpoint of Yoshin ryu, there is significant historical and technical evidence of Chinese influence. There is also hard evidence of correspondence between the Yoshin ryu and Daito ryu headmasters. Any technical influence between these two schools has yet to be established but there is no doubt that Yoshin ryu and Daito ryu shihan were on friendly terms and corresponding with one another. Concerning atemi.... It is true that striking came into much broader study in Japan following the common wearing of armor but to conclude that this was a parallel development not influenced by Chinese martial arts ingores hard evident to the contrary. Common in Edo Period Japan were numerous Chinese manuscripts and treatises describing vitalpoint striking based on Chinese knowledge of acupuncture. Several Yoshin ryu densho from the 1700's describing kyusho even include drawing with individuals depicted in Chinese clothing. Even the reknown Heiho Okugisho, credited to Yamamoto Kansuke ( 1493-1561) and then published in 1804 includes drawings of individuals dressed in Chinese clothing. Assuming all classical Japanese budo to be indigenous in origin or influence is ethnocentric and unsupported by known historical fact. Toby Threradgill / TSYR
Hi Again Toby, What time (ie year) are we talking about for the interaction between Yoshin and Daito Ryu? Regards,
Hi Graham, A group photo exists taken in Yubetsu, Hokkaido including Yoshida Kotaro, Sokaku Takeda and 6 famous Yoshin ryu shihan plus several Shinto priests. Writing on the back of the photo dates the event to around 1910-15. Other info to consider..... Yoshida Kotaro was a trained budoka before meeting Takeda Sokaku. He may have studied one branch of Yoshin ryu before meeting Takeda Sokaku because the obscure family art he apparantly knew was called Yanagi ryu jujutsu, meaning willow school, just like Akiyama Yoshin ryu and Yoshin Koryu. Yoshida Kotaro introduced Ueshiba Morihei to Takeda Sokaku in Engaru, Hokkaido in 1915. Yoshin ryu was ubiquitous in Aizu during the youth and early years of Sokaku Takeda's life. If he didn't study it, he must have at least been familiar with it. One wonders what led Takeda Sokaku and Yoshida Kotaro to become friends and exactly when they met. Chances are we will never know the answer to this question. Toby Threadgill / TSYR
As I mentioned before, I think Takeda may have soaked up as much as he could, due to the cash per techniques approach he had teaching. Also as I mentioned before, I think most of the formulation of Daito Ryu would have been Takeda's. But I still think there could have been a root inside "jujutsu" that he could also have learnt. This could be a source of the strange approach to hanmi hantachi mentioned before, with the kneeling person winning. Is the basic Ippon Dori of Daito Ryu, similar to anything in Yoshin Ryu. I understand they have a similar technique as you mentioned, but I mean the same structure, block, strike, kick, lock, pin, and then strike. Regards,
Graham, Yes, but this structure is not unique to Daito ryu or Yoshin ryu. You see this structure in many schools of koryu jujutsu founded in the Edo Period. Toby Threadgill / TSYR
This is my understanding too. It's not that anyone has anything against Chinese arts; simply that there does not appear to have been sufficient opportunity for Ueshiba to have learned Bauguazhang or whatever the theories say he learned in China.
I think that there has always been an exchang of techniques even among the koryu. In the early sixties I attended seminars where aikido (chiba ) karate (enoida) judo (otani) kendo ( tomio otani)all taught at Grange farm. Chiba shihan and enoida shihan would cross train together. We were not allowed to view but we could hear the loud kiais.We were allowed to attend any classes that did not conflict with our own and often Harada shihan of shotokai karate would view the aikido training. I hated when he viewed because the aikido shihan would really turn it on. ON US!! The shihan viewed themselves as budoka rather than proponents of different arts. It made for a real brotherhood. I have been fortunate to retain friends made from those days. regards koyo harada training in the aikido dojo kamiza is O Sensei Ueshiba.
Graham, There's no block in Daito-ryu's ippondori technique. It's an interception of the attacking arm, while the arm is still beng chambered behind the centerline. This may sound like splitting hairs, but it's an important distinction. The aiki in the technique is completely dependent on intercepting the attacking arm before it passes the attacker's centerline. Even in the ura version of the technique, in which the attacker's arm has come forward beyond his centerline, there is no block. You blend with the incoming attack as it goes by you.
There is a term from swordsmanship aiki wo hazusu which means avoid aiki. Aiki being that moment when both are using the same timing or rythm.An experience budoka shall "catch " the rythm of a conflict and break it to unbalance or strike the opponent. This is often misunderstood by some modern aikidoka who attempt to use aiki (same timing) to execute techniques. This is only possible when the "attacker" harmonises (dances) :woo: Striking the attack before it passes the centreline is an example of aiki wo hazusu or allowing an attack to pass and deflecting it. regards koyo breaking the rythm
Okay, I will be a little more specific. In the Kime no Kata we do (from Judo), the technique like ippondori is the tsuki age. This involves a block - kick - lock - pin, and is done in ura fashion. I assume this comes from Tenjin as it is similar to the shoto dori technique (as before can't remember the name, I am sure someone will know) seen in the Tehodoki no Kata. Is the EXACT block - strike - kick - lock - pin - strike, omote version of ippondori done in any of the arts you ar familiar with, specifically Yoshin Ryu, which may then be seen as a direct source of their first technique? Regards,
It is splitting hairs Our definition of a block includes anything to do with avoiding, sweeping, trapping, deflecting, blending, intercepting, pushing, pulling, taking, stopping, or striking the attacking "weapon". We call an evasion an empty block. It is just terminology, ala, definition. I know some think karate when the word block is used. Regards,
Graham, That's exactly the point, a lot of koryu jujutsu ryuha from that were formed in the Edo-jidai used that format because it worked. It's like airbags, ABS & power steering in cars - One car has it, a few years later almost all cars have it.
Graham, Yeah...What Steve said. When you say "exact" I don't know in what context, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Is any kata in Yoshin ryu exactly like ippondori in Daito ryu? No, not exactly. But shin no kurai in all three branches of Tenjin Shinyo ryu is not exactly the same either. Shin no kurai in Shindo Yoshin ryu is significantly different in execution that in its parent arts, but the technical relationship between the differing versions is plainly obvious to someone familiar with both systems. Chasing lineage based on kata only is a tricky proposition requiring intense research and depth of knowledge concerning many ryu. I'll give you an example. We have some kata in Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu executed almost exactly like some in Shingetsu Muso Yanagi ryu. The problem is although SMYR claims a connection to Yoshin ryu, it's Takagi Yoshin ryu, a Yoshin ryu line unconnected to the Yoshin ryu lines that are the major taijutsu influences in Shindo Yoshin ryu....Or so I thought. Further research has turned up an apparant connection to Takagi Yoshin ryu thru the yawara curriculum practiced in Matsuzaki Shinkage ryu, an art assumed only influential to the weapons curriculum in the Takamura branch of Shindo Yoshin ryu. Confusing huh? Many people unfamiliar with Yoshin ryu do not realize how many lines there are. I just realized that a densho I own is from a line of Yoshin ryu I never knew existed. I also own a densho from an obscure branch of jujutsu I only recently realized was related to Akiyama Yoshin ryu. Delving into Yoshin ryu history requires an amazing familiarity with kanji and Edo jidai jujutsu history. Most people mistakely assume all Yoshin ryu is simply Yoshin ryu. Ahhh, if it was only that simple........ Toby Threadgill / TSYR
From your experience, does Tenjin or the other arts you have studied have the ippon dori movement across the front of the attacker? That is the omote movement. The reason I ask is that this movement is NOT yawara, jujutsu. That is, it is not yeilding. You are deliberately moving into the attack, entering into the attacker. According to the willow mentality, you should move away, accepting the force. This is what is shown in the Judo/Tenjin technique I mentioned, which is basically ippondori ura. I want names of techniques and kata! I want facts!
Ah, Shin no Kurai, that sounds right. I knew someone would know. What I see in ippondori omote, (Ude Osae, Ikkyo, Ikkajo, Oshi Taoshi, Robuse) is a principle, to enter into an attack. This is radically different to the principle of yielding to an attack. Regards,
Graham, With respect to Daito-ryu, you're correct. In Daito-ryu's ippondori omote technique, you're not yielding. However, you are using aiki to unbalance uke immediately upon contact. You accomplish this by entering very deeply and intercepting the elbow of his attacking arm while his attack is still in a yin state. If you time the entry correctly, you unbalance him backward severely. From there you can complete the technique (stepping to your right and swinging his right arm across to your right and bringing his elbow into your center, locking his wrist and elbow and attacking the pressure points, turning into him and driving your shin through his ribcage, and finally pinning him through his arm before applying the todome to finish) with minimal force, because you take advantage of his imbalance. I agree with you about the ura version of the technique. You not only yield, you augment uke's yang energy with your own energy to achieve the imbalance. I think the overarching principle in both versions is "touch equals unbalance". At the very moment you make contact with uke, you must take his balance. Hope this helps... Regards.
