Can somone explain the diffrent TKD organization

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Rataca100, Feb 20, 2017.

  1. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    As i have started (and not gone back in a while) to a GTUK TKD school, which i know is an offshoot of the ITF. I am curious of what the average differences between GTUK, ITF, WTF and the other ones are.

    I have also heard of another TKD organization in my town which is TAGB

    Don't take this the wrong way, I just want to compare what the GTUK schools do to the others just to scout out the different styles and what is different if anything. I also want to see if there is any point in attempting to change the TKD organization i go to or not.

    (as much as i dont want to put it here, but have any of you heard of that Functional TKD federation someone started on youtube?)
  2. martinnharvey

    martinnharvey Valued Member

    What is the reason you haven't been back in a while? Is it the school, the instructor or the syllabus.
    I see you are a white belt so I would imagine all associations are going to be teaching the same basic stuff.
    The Head instructor of the GTUK is GM Roy Oldham. He was one of the first 12 civilians to pass his black belt under FGM Rhee in the late 60's/early 70's so he knows what he is talking about.
    Over the years they have been in the ITF, out of the ITF and back in again. They are currently part of the UITF under Grand Master Hwang Kwang Sung. He is one of the original pioneers
  3. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Mix of personal reasons and discontent with the style. I dont have much intrest in progressing to a belt persay and they focus on progressing to the next belt, as i can take long periods of time i wont learn anything that useful from it. (ignoring the inherent problems with it like lack of sweeps and lower kicks)
    I wanted to persue it primarily for self defence things and have expanded to wanting to pursue it as a sport/to get fit as a secondary thing.
    (its also probbly yhe better thign to go to in my town for personal reasons as well. )

    I can bring up a example, the first pattern you do, i see no point in it, i know its probbly to install foot work etc, but i have shown i can go into a guard stance well.There is no percivable practical self defence or combat application of the first pattern you do in GTUK. Also the inherent problem of primarily learning punching when you cant punch through a lot of bones (especially skulls) without having a high chance of damaging your hand.
    I do also feel like as a white belt you dont get the same amount of training as a higher belt level therefor it stunts progression because im not intrested in patterns or belt progression.Not helped by me gtting the impression black belt is the start of it...

    Im probbly going to see if i can cross train in something alongside with it, its either shotokan karate or boxing if thats the case. But if you know of anything which goes decently with it.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  4. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    For your purposes Shotokan will be a waste of time. Go and join a boxing gym or an MMA class. They'll teach you punching to the head of course, but you can always tailor it for your personal use if you're dead set against that.

  5. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    To answer your original question, there are two main branches of TKD, "ITF" and "WTF."
    I put these in inverted commas because the labels aren't that simple really, but it will give us some idea.

    There are many differences, but the obvious ones are that they use different patterns and have different sparring rules. Again, this is a broad generalisation :)

    Groups like GTUK and TAGB are groups that have broken away from one of the bigger organisations, but will still do something similar. TAGB, for example, use the "ITF" patterns, similar sparring rules etc. They are not in the ITF, but have some similarities.

    Hope that helps :)

    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  6. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    It sounds like Taekwondo is not a good fit for you right now. Have you considered an external or hard style of kung fu perhaps?

    The truth is there are no shortcuts in martial arts. It will take years to get really good. If you stick with it I think you will gain a better understanding of why there's an emphasis on fundamentals at the lower ranks.

    Find a style that you really like and a good quality school with highly qualified instructors. Dedicate yourself and the rest will take care of itself.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  7. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    TKD was the first organized martial art I practiced, and later in time I dabbled in two styles of karate, so I an appreciate what you're saying. But honestly, Mitch is right -- if this is your attitude, then TKD and karate are not for you. Try thai boxing: there are no "patterns" in the TKD sense of the word, and you'll learn low kicks/sweeps. :)

    That's an odd objection. I'm having trouble thinking of more than 2 martial arts that don't have punches, if even only in their katas. If punching is not your thing, I think you'll have to take up catch wrestling or kendo. :dunno:
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  8. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Do any of you know of a TKD, that does good sweeps? I thought some Karates did sweeps and knee strikes. - Mitch/everyone

    I shall number my responses from the top,this really needs multi quote system.

    1): SCA
    I was looking at some Kung fu's but i dont have transit to go to any in my area that i semi like the look of. I think i only have wing Chun, animal style and Lua Gar in my area. (i like te looks of Praying mantis and the modern version Sanda)

    2) Aiki
    I dont know my Karate forms that well, all i can ascertain is there is quite a bit of variation between the styles, some of which i like the look of more than others.

    I saw a martial art which advertised it didnt do punches in Martial arts illustrated, i do like striking, but i want to keep it open hand and low kicks& sweeps along with using my knees and elbows. i just dont like emphasis on punches in self-defence, my issue with Boxing and MMA, punching can lead to damaged fist easier than palm strikes. i kind of like jujutsu which mixes striking and grappling, that sort of thing. (as long as the train with resistance)

    To all of you again, i dont so much kind the pattens, i just dont prioritise them. it would be much better if they did a sort of begginers things and went through basic self defence methods in general. If you advertise its self defenc i expect some good things on self defence and not dueling. :p

    Just to eb clear, i WILL look into a boxing/MMA/Kungfu around my area. I know of a Boxing near me and a point/light contonous "chinese kickboxing" near me.

    [edit:] I have a video from a youtube channel who the owner has made a "functional Taekwondo federation" i would like peoples opinions on it here, he ha kind of mereged kickboxing, MMA and TKD together. Thsi si the first one i have seen claim it is from TKD, i have sene a few peole use Karate as a base and sportify/merge it with things. Its not advertisement, i just want opinions on it, in my mind it seems good.Not too sure if its just a mcdojo type thing though, so i want experience deople to view it. :p This is the video for 8 blocks .
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  9. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I train basic sweeps sometimes at my TKD club, but couldn't claim to major on them by any means. Shotokan will do them, but I'd question their utility given the format of their sparring. Enshin/Ashihara karate would be better, but I don't think you'll find it in Lincoln.

    That video references a website selling online courses, we all know where that leads... In fact I think we had him on here a while ago. Plus man bun :wow:

    Finally, I would argue that self defence is a very specific thing. I teach it in class and through separate classes too. Most martial arts are actually not directly teaching self defence as such.

  10. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Oh and to use multi quote, use the button with the +" symbol at the bottom right of each post :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------V
  11. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    There's truth in that, sure.
    Myself, I am a fan of Jap JJ, so I can appreciate what you're saying. Unfortunately it's largely watered down these days, but if you can find a good school -- go for it!

    As an alternative you might like hapkido. In simplistic terms it's TKD + Jap JJ.
  12. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    I may just bite the bullet and see if i can be taught the knife hand blocking/striking in TKD along with the kicks as thats the only ones i am interested in. :p
    (i preemptively know the person who runs the TKD Dojo i go to anyway, so that makes it easier)

    Fair enough, i didnt really like his online courses & books.

    I know most of them don't, but to advertise self-defence i expect it to be a significant part in it. learning to duel is not self defence.

    I do just plan on taking bits and bobs from all the ones i study and merging them together and perhaps doing my own teaching to emphasis self defence teaching. (not any time soon, like years. XD) Whats the better way of making sure i like whats being taught, teach it myself. :p

    I was looking at Hapkido, i assume the same thing as the other ones, if its a good dojo go for it. Arnis is kind of like that i think, because its in the same location as the jui Jitsu i believe. I wish i had personal transit. (not going to mention that person i linked turned me off it, cough cough)

    I do have another question on TKD, is it taught differently in Korea on average to western countries? (probably not)

    Oh and another thing, the Kata's/Patterns are for the same reason in TKD as other martial arts arent they? and they basically have similar begginings to Karate starter Kata's? to make absolutely sure)
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
  13. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Please don't do this, it's a terrible idea. if you are dismissing a huge range of techniques that are the staple of most styles, then deciding to teach "self defence" based on magpieing stuff from different places, you'll be the guy in those videos, but worse.

    Find an art you like and study it properly, for years. Research self defence as a subject in great depth and learn a lot, then think about the gaps in your knowledge and how to fill them. Do that, then find a way to pressure test what you think works. Only then think about teaching self defence.

    TKD is taught differently in Korea, same as it is taught differently everywhere. There are places only interested in turning out competitors in their chosen style's sporting format, and nothing at all wrong with that. I once heard a story of a man who trained in Korea, and for a week he did back leg turning kicks every day for hours. Next week, he thought, "Right! Time for something new!" He then did back leg turning kicks for another two weeks. He did go on to fight at the Olympics though :)

    There are also places teaching it for other purposes.

    Your last question depends on what you think the patterns are for in other arts :) And yes, they are essentially the Heian kata chopped up, with a sprinkling of some other kata, at least in "ITF" styles.

  14. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    I wont do that then, but i am quite interested in the knife hand things though.

    Before i forget, can you recommend a good book on TKD patterns? Preferably one for Kups's for all organizations or GTUK. Not to self teach but make it easier to learn patterns as i still have not got past the 4 step punching/blocking.

    I do have a question on the breathing in both TKD and Karate. Why do they do that "psst" thing as they move? the onl two reasons i know is breathing and to tenses up a muscle which in theory makes striking better. (didnt feel it. :p)

    Cheers fo the response i might just bite the bullet and do TKD with boxing and a sprinkling of other things as and when i can do them. (at least if i am a white belt i dont have to wear a dobok. :p) Also, i assume you can transfer so-so easily to some other styles form TKD, i know karate seems to be a decent one. I did semi promise myself i woul aim to try and do it to a red beltbelt level or at least a upper belt level.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    If you want to learn the moves, I imagine most associations have books that show them. Ask your Instructor and see. if not TAGB do books, look on Amazon, or Stuart Anslow has published some great books on TKD patterns, again look on Amazon.

    I personally hate the "psst" thing, just breathe out as you hit.

    The main thing is to find a club you like, then go and train there regularly. Have fun :)

  16. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Uggggh.... I hate this analogy. Yes, I know it's a pretty good one, but I still hate it! :cry:

    Hapkido really depends on where you learn it. As an art, it stems from (and has a base in) Aikijujutsu, with an emphasis on circular footwork, joint locks, falling, and so on. In its formative years in Korea, there was a lot of development going on that led to quite a few different 'types' of Hapkido... some with more kicks and punches, some with acrobatic breakfalls, some with lots of weapons, some with patterns and so far. The nice thing about Hapkido is it generally produces students with 'decent' overall skills in self defense and level of force knowledge.

    If you plan to study Hapkido for your primary art, I would suggest doing some cross training later with some sort of grappling (one area where I think HKD is a bit weak).

    It can be a bit 'hit or miss' depending on where you train though.

    I trained in Korea for 4 years, studying Hapkido and Taekwondo.

    In my opinion, based on my experience, TKD in Korea tends to focus more exclusively on the art's requirements (like patterns, sparring, and breaking) with little focus on things like 'self defense' and such. It also is very much focused on kids' classes... where many kinds get bussed to the dojang and train for an hour, then another group, and another and so on. It can be tough to find a good 'adult' program (not impossible). And in SOuth Korea, it will most likely be a WTF/Kukkiwon school... the other groups are not represented very well in South Korea.
  17. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Good point, i forgot they did that in some asian countries.
  18. LetsGetItOn

    LetsGetItOn Valued Member

    Aren't the majority of TKD groups either ITF or WTF regardless, but end up setting up their own organisations because they want to be in charge, basically, however, they will use reasoning (excuses) such as that they're discontent with how the parent organisation is being run, etc. Personally, i think it's a power thing.
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I think this can be the case in some examples.

    For others, it also has to do with how TKD grew... I know of some schools that were formed early on using the ITF material and then were later pressured to join the WTF (based on world politics in some cases). In some cases, these loyal school would then be told to change to new patterns as the parent federation added/changed them. For some schools... these frequent mandated changes were tiring, especially when some felt that the parent organizations were not giving much to them aside from certificates, but were expecting membership fees, test fees, and other support. I know of some schools that dropped out, kept doing what they had learned as 'traditional' and set up their own federation.
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I'm sure there as many motives as people, so as organisations grow, it's inevitable that some may have different views, or conflicts may arise and so people leave.

    Some doubtless do it for power, but I'm sure many do it for other reasons.


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