Bringing Aikido to a Fist Fight: an Anecdote

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Jitsuka, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    Re: link above to an Iwama syllabus.

    I briefly looked at the site on my comp, but now I'm on my phone and either my stupidly huge fingers or my dislike of phones prevents me from viewing it.

    I seem to recall it was a Scandinavian school? There's apparently a lot of fake Iwama style schools, however I've trained at 3 with radically different approaches. All were genuine, and all used resistance. I'd say if it stresses not resisting it's not a genuine Iwama style school, but without looking into it I'm unsure as yet.
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

  3. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    Very true (at home, on comp now).

    The teacher must have had a reason to eliminate the resistance training. How curious.

    According to one of my teachers, Iwama uchi-deshi were trained to "max resist" as a kind of kaeshi-waza against people who criticised Aikido. Ironically, this seems to go against the Grandmaster's dogma. While I've never heard of an Iwama style school dropping this methodology I can see why a teacher would. As an example, a whole bunch of Tomiki style schools here dropped the competition element. Probably boring for many, but interesting to me.
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    When you say resistence, do you mean tension, or active movements to counter/negate the uki nage?
  5. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    It's a little hard to explain. If you know katate-dori (one hand held) we use tai-no-henko (body turn) to rotate around the axis. If you cannot do this with "max resist" you can't do Aikido. Same with Morote-dori kokyu ho. If you cannot throw someone twice your weight locking your arm with both hands (as a swordgrip) you cannot do Aikido. These are typically the 1st and 2nd kata in keiko. Does that work as an explanation?

    EDIT: "twice the weight" is a mild exaggeration, and it's not an "active" or dynamic "lock" so to speak, merely a principle.
  6. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    CLARIFICATION on last post (apologies for double post):

    Takayasu sensei used to say "we train to become martial artists" as opposed to being one in keiko (training). The wrist-grab used against a tsuki (thrust) for example, could easily translate martially as a blade (eg: knife) directed into the wrist, severing veins etc. We do taijutsu as if armed. Sorry, I'm EAAL (English as another language) and to avoid thread-drift I thought this was a valid point to add.
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    So your using tension to work against, not active resistance.
  8. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    That depends. In kihon-waza, it's static resistance. In kaeshi-kara-oyo-waza it becomes anywhere from active resistance to deploying kiaijutsu into an eardrum so loud the uke goes into shock. Like I said, it's hard to explain.
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    wouldnt that make it a form of randori?
  10. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    I've not heard of this before, do you have a link to further information on what happened?
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    As told by a witness who was there....

  12. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    I've read that, I believe that's Amdur sensei's writing.

    @Wayde... yes, it kind of is in a literal sense. The thing is though, Iwama style (as I know it) focuses on kihon, and jiyu-waza (the multiple opponent attacks) is more about tai-sabaki. Kaeshi-waza and oyo-waza is only really trained in at much higher levels, once the beginnings of Takemusu Aiki become apparent. So... yes, you're right, "competition" enters the "game" so to speak, but it isn't taught to those who have not demonstrated the kind of martial restraint required. Otherwise, high level Aikido would just become a bloodbath.

    I'm kind of at my limits as to how to avoid thread-drift, and am considering forming another thread (re: Iwama style approaches). So: another anecdote:

    A good friend of mine (one far younger and more addicted to the internet) once was having a "yelling party" with me at 3AM about the lack of realistic attacks in Aikido. I admit, shomen/yokomen-uchi look pretty silly if you're not trained in swordwork. I knew he had done some Wu-shu and Karate, some Boxing etc, and was wondering why he had decided to be "attacky" rather than his usual chilled self. I trusted him enough to let him make a point of it physically, plus it can be a good party trick as long as everyone else wasn't scared by it, which they weren't. Immediately he "clocked" me with a fast and sharp right hook. I didn't expect him to wade in ballz and all, and while a little stunned I adjusted ma-ai to get near a (plastic) bunch of chairs and the table. He did some kinda weird football tackle kind of move so I picked up one of the chairs and knocked him into the table, hitting him over the shoulders. Assorted beer bottles and nuts fell on him and then he "jumped up" not realising he was under a table. While a typical dumb late night rough 'n tumble (between friends) he had managed to make such a clown of himself no one could stop laughing.

    I'm not one of those "elitist aikidoka" guys who think my art is better than the next bloke's one. In the morning he told me he'd started in amateur MMA stuff, and was trying some move or another (a double leg sweep kinda thing). I suggested (if it was in the rules) that next time he was "in the ring" he pulls those funny synthetic panties MMA guys wear of his opponent to "leg sweep" him. He did, and got thrown out of his club. I think he started to understand Aikido after that but sadly he died in a car accident roughly 5 years later. He loved that metal band Pantera, and got called the "panty tearer" for a while. Loveable character.

    RIP Luke.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2017
  13. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member


    Van Zandt and Dead_pool like this.
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    quote of the week!
    David Harrison likes this.
  15. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    The real question though is why is it the quote of the week?

    I love it how people use Rogan as some kind of measuring stick of MA, it's like asking Americans to buy their country back from Russia. I like Rogan, at least he is on mushrooms most of the time.
  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member

    Because it's absolutely ridiculous.

    Because he talks a lot of sense when it comes to martial arts. He's not a measuring stick, he's a realist about fighting.
  17. KarateMum

    KarateMum Valued Member

    I think some of this depends on grades and expectations. The OP states that their Dojo was OK with the introduction of moves from other MA into fights, but speaking as someone that only knows a little about one type of karate I feel it is unfair to be asked in a sparring session to respond to moves that aren't related to those that I know how to deal with. OK, in the real world I guess someone could come at you like a bull in a proverbial china shop with no over-arching technique and, in an attempt to avoid getting beaten, I would counter with what seemed natural at the time and hope for the best before running. However, I find such an approach in a KARATE sparring session is unexpected and I am surprised it is allowed - c/should opponents 'score' if they are not using the correct MA technique for that particular sparring session. i.e. the OP was in a KARATE session, should they have felt it was fair to deploy aikido techniques and should their Dojo allow it?

    From the perspective of a learner I think it is quite unfair to face someone who is not going to fight according to the same rules and techniques as I am, esp. when they are the only ones I know. I have a huge problem with someone from a boxing background who insists on sparring from that perspective and therefore uses moves to which I have no carefully learned and learned counter.

    As for fighting your ex. it sounds like it got personal and I think the OP should have walked away. If there is any animosity between two fighters then I reckon 'respect' would probably fly out of the window as soon as sparring started and people are going to get hurt if there is no 'respect'.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Two reasons -

    One - it is quite a comical description and not really accurate; If the Dog Brothers don't end up as blood baths Aikido sure as hell isn't
    Two - you probably haven't seen it as you are a relative newcomer, but it is the type of quote every fraud, charlatan, nut bar and general loonie uses to justify their art...Ashida Kim, Ron Collins, Frank Dux, David Furey, Wushu Richard, Fierce hadou....the list goes on. Similarly it smacks of the "train 4 da str33tz bra!!" approach that again people use to explain why they cannot "spar" or apply pressure in the training method

    Highly regarded BJJ black belt, Martial Arts journalist, high level TKD competitor, friends and training partners with some of the worlds best fighters and a pretty smart and experienced as far a measuring sticks go he has a pretty solid pedigree
    pgsmith and David Harrison like this.
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yea... and you have to appreciate exactly how much people love measuring their stick around here :D
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    If you've got it, flaunt it!!

Share This Page