Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by runcai, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    From an 18th century introduction to the earlier Shaolin Hand Classic (Cao Huandou):

    "Nei li (internal strength)..cannot be exhausted by words. Like an old hunchback who catches cicadas, like archer...who shot lice'. When one's resolution is not distracted, when his spirit is concentrated, he will begin to acquire the agility of 'mind conceiving, hands responding (de xin ying shou). At this point there is sure to be no straining of muscles nor exposure of bones."
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  2. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    From the 'Song of the Emei Monk's Fist' early 16th century, this is supposed to illustrate the essence of internal training and dao yin within the martial arts.

    "His breathing imperceptible, guarding his primordial Qi" (bi xi wusheng shen qi shou)
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  3. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member


    Not strictly true. Many of the full body power techniques in hung ga use a head turn away from the direction of strike to isolate the top of the spine from the force of the movement traveling up the spine and whiplashing into the base of the skull.

    Turning the head is not strictly necessary, but it does make it easier to direct the force of a full body movement in the correct direction.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Nice quote from Chen styles CXW

     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks Cloudz. That's the kind of quotes I'm seeing when defining the type of movement as a principle.

    Kind of my fault for calling it full body power. I'm really just talking about a particular principle. I labeled the principle: full body power principle.

    A technique where the force of the movement travels up the spine would not be using the full body power principle. It could be partially be using the principle AND combining it with other power generation methods. In my limited understanding, full body power principle (as I labelled it) does not have force traveling up the spine terminating at a point of tension. Such whipping force reminds me more of fa jin (when used as a whipping force).

    Just to switch things up, I'll use a different principle as an example. Take the "do not get hit principle". Let's say I cover up and take a knife slash across the outside of my forearm instead of across my throat. I'm still getting hit on the arm, but not in a vital area. So I'm applying a deviation of the "do not get hit" principle.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If you want to

    - sweep your opponent leg to your right, and
    - pull his shoulder to your left,

    your lower body is spinning to your right but your upper body is spinning to your left, you cannot use your whole body force.

    In other words, if you want to generate 2 different forces toward different directions, the "whole body force" will make no sense, or should be "redefined".
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  7. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Full body power, moving all as one unit, is not a technique. It is a response. If you are thinking about what you want to do you are too late.
     
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If you move your body as one unit, you are fully commit yourself. Sometime you don't want to fully commit yourself and put yourself into a situation that you cannot recover from it. In fighting, there are situations that "full body power" is not proper.

    For example, when you train "foot sweep", it's important that no matter how hard your leg may sweep, your upper body should remain "static". When you sweep your opponent's leg, most of the time your opponent will just bend his leg at his knee joint and let your sweeping leg to pass under his leg. It's important that your sweep won't affect your own balance.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya6YvnkdcWE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya6YvnkdcWE[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PktEit6D3WM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PktEit6D3WM[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  9. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    If one has good listening skills the body can change at any time. I don't want to overcommit myself either.

    I move like a buoy, riding the wave.

    And one can move in both directions. As one. At once. Together as one. When I take a step my left leg and right arm move together. They move as one.

    I do the same kicking drills in the videos as part of my taiji warm up but with the hands supporting my lower back
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    This is a common principle to a plethora of arts too - a casual roll with an experienced grappler will show exactly how much crossover there really is
     
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    IMA movement is not everything "moving as one unit" the way you are talking about it there. It is integrated movements supported in all directions. Some of that movement or force is not seen or very obvious - it is force inside the body sometimes. IMA people refer to this all as movement; but sometimes it means force(s) unseen. Parts of the body can remain static outwardly but it is still supported ("in all directions") and have a force vector(s). Balancing forces in opposing directions is a really important point rather than everything going one way as one unit. Sometimes it may be visible outwardly in the technique, but other times not necessary all depending on what you're doing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Or maybe you just don't understand how it works and feels as one integrated connected body force doing different things.
    Do you have a similar problem when you pull with one arm and strike with another ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't know if it would be a "problem".

    If indeed it is a principle (which I believe so), then it is always true but there are tens of thousands of principles and at the some point it is a matter of priority what principles are emphasized the most at any moment.
     
  14. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When you

    - pull with one arm and strike with another, or
    - push your opponent's head down and hook his leg up,

    your body is rotating into the same direction either clockwise or counter-clockwise. That's different from the foot sweep.

    In the following clip, your leg is rotating clockwise (top view) while your arm is rotating counter-clockwise.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGfQM4CRh2I"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGfQM4CRh2I[/ame]

    There are other examples such as the "twisting and springing" that your arms are twisting in a circle while your leg is attacking in a straight line (which has nothing to do with that circle). Your body generate 3 different forces into 3 different directions.

    If to generate 2 (or 3) different forces into 2 (or 3) different directions can be called as "full body power" then both the "foot sweep" and "twisting and springing" will fit into that definition, otherwise, the "full body power" principle may need to be violated sometime.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    According to CXW's theory, when he applies "foot sweep" or "twisting and springing", which direction should his Dantien rotate?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  16. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    If external probably does not rotate, depends on Which motor you are using.
     
  17. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    How to use "internal motor" on

    - foot sweep, or
    - twisting and springing?
     
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Not necessarily violated if the move is down WITHOUT twisting or springing. It is possible to rotate without twisting and to be light on the feet without springing. I think it comes down to consistent movement so that technique was done without falling and without tension (too much force). The energy of the waist presses downward.

    Do you have the name of these techniques from Tai Chi? For instance, I looked up "White Swan Cools Its Wings" in A Study of Taijiquan, Chapter 8.

    Move the left hand downward until it is below the solar plexus. The left elbow is against the ribs, and the base of the thumb is against the belly. The left hand pauses there. Turn the right wrist until the palm faces outward. As you lower the left hand, simultaneously raise the right hand upward so that it passes outside the left. The right hand stops in front of the forehead with the back of the hand touching the Tian Ting point. As the hands move, the right foot simultaneously steps forward, touching down on the heel. The feet should be spaced a comfortable distance apart. As you move the right foot forward, the body remains upright and stable. Do not move the body or shift the weight as the right leg moves.^1 The energy of the waist presses downward. Use the intent to pull in the roots of the shoulders and legs. This energy must not be obvious externally. the pressing up of the crown of the head also must not be obvious.^2 The center of the heart is empty and quiet. Without thought, the body is naturally stable. This is known as the wondrous mystery.

    ^1 This method of stepping is constant throughout the form. Whether advancing, retreating, or stepping to the side, the foot steps out first, with no movement of the hips or torso, the heel is placed down, and then the body weight is gradually shifted to the stepping let. One must never "fall" into the foot when stepping out.

    ^2 "Obvious" here refers to using too much force (tension).

    Now what figure from the above is that a leg sweep would be done by sinking down while applying pressure horizontally using the leg. I believe the horizontal pressure might be moving the foot to the sweeping point, then straightening the leg naturally as weight sinks. I am seeing this as more of a hip throw force than a foot sweep.
     
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I don't think "弹拧 (Tan Ning) - twist and spring" exists in Taiji. Here are examples.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn4MivBEuFI&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn4MivBEuFI&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xkl4pjWMso&feature=youtu.be"]twist spring - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
  20. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

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