Nice quote Kagete, for me anyone who can joke about something serious and actually enjoys life for all of its humor gains more respect in my books than someone who goes about claiming they have proof all the time constantly trying to make themselves out as being someone. but... thats just me.
No matter what evidence you present, people seem to latch onto the idea that Masaaki Hatsumi and Bujinkan are the only "real" sources of authentic Ninjutsu. Even when it is evident that this has been dead wrong since day one. Masaaki Hatsumi is obviously an actor who took the golden opportunity to latch onto a "ninja" craze in the West. "Authentic" Ninjutsu has never actually been exposed to the public. In Japan this has been known for ages. The "Western" martial arts communities bought into Masaaki Hatsumi a long time ago and have refused to let go. Recently, information has been exposed about this that contradicts everything Masaaki Hatsumi has taught and stood for. Take the video from the previous posts http://youtube.com/watch?v=7xXAQuJ5Hao The guy is clearly a straight up actor. Nothing more, nothing less. He started to become popular in the "West" and people bought into it never knowing it was a complete hoax. This hoax spread and grew. In Japan people could care less.............on top of that being the culture they were (Japanese) they tended to totally ignore it while it grew to epidemic proportions in Western countries. Now, you have people that have invested years of their life into it.............now finding out that the guy lied to them. I feel for them but they should take whatever good experiences they got out of it and move on. Maybe they learned something about some Japanese martial arts.........maybe they didn't. They certainly didn't learn Ninjutsu. It's about time people started to move on from this now that it is known to be nothing more than an act.
Just a question: What DID Hatsumi Masaaki learn from Takamatsu To*****ugu then? And what did Hatsumi Masaaki teach people like Manaka, Tanemura, Ishizuka, Seno, Oguri etc?
Newsflash: Everyone knows about Jiraya and i am very proud of it personally. You will find that there are quite a few ninja behind the special effects and fight scenes in Hollywood and in the film industry.
The guy is clearly a straight up actor. Nothing more, nothing less. He started to become popular in the "West" and people bought into it never knowing it was a complete hoax. This hoax spread and grew. In Japan people could care less.............on top of that being the culture they were (Japanese) they tended to totally ignore it while it grew to epidemic proportions in Western countries. Now, you have people that have invested years of their life into it.............now finding out that the guy lied to them. I feel for them but they should take whatever good experiences they got out of it and move on. Maybe they learned something about some Japanese martial arts.........maybe they didn't. They certainly didn't learn Ninjutsu. It's about time people started to move on from this now that it is known to be nothing more than an act.[/QUOTE] Ive known about Jiraya since I started back in the early 90's, didnt affect my training any. Dude, seriously your not spewing anything new, most older practitioners are well aware of many of your problems with the Bujinkan, the ones who had a problem with it... left, the others are still training. I chose to leave because I found something better for me. Your "crusade" to expose the truth about Hatsumi is probably older than you are. Move on, nobody here cares.
Being an actor was a pivotal part of being a ninja. Disguises....espionage....etc. Much like the visible part of the iceberg is not the entirety of the iceberg, Hatsumi soke is most probably not the entirety of modern sources for ninjutsu. Please enlighten me as to what "new" information has surfaced that contradicts everything Hatsumi soke has taught and stood for.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, wasn't the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten written in japan?:bang: Silv, you've been called out repeatedly to provide independently verifiable info on these so called "japanese historians", yet all you've provided is a link to a website that doesn't prove anything and novel after novel soapboxing the same regurtitations as the beginning of this thread. Food for thought? Absolutely. Proof?...Not even a little bit. Regards...
Personally, I'm not the academic type Bujinkan practitioner. Although I have an interest in the history, it’s the training I enjoy. Other people have much more time on their hands to study the history of all the different schools (perhaps even people who don't post on message boards like this!) Discussion on the authenticity of the schools should be left to those who know more than whats on wikepidia. Perhaps one day I will get more involved in the language and the history. I have seen Dr Hatsumi move in Japan - there is no denying that he is a gifted and capable martial artist. Some of his students are very gifted too and very capable. Soke is an artistic person. He has an interest in the theatre - and a PHD in that field. So what. He enjoys acting - so what! He likes to do calligraphy and draws pictures - So what! When you’re a creative person, who says you are allowed only one medium in which to practice your art? In my opinion, I am learning an effective martial art with the source of the art being someone who is an excellent practitioner. I really don’t care if Soke enjoyed a bit of power ranger fighting back in the day – this does not disprove his obvious ability.
All talk, no walk. Let's hear your sources on that one. Besides, ever heard of a guy called Koyama Ryutaro? Look, they're using showbiz to cater to tourists! This is obviously a scam!!!
Mr.James Lee the present leader of Bujinkan Hachimon Dojo Malaysia on this subject had to say: "About Dr Hatsumi, we do not discourage further research into his authenticity, but what we can tell you is that he is the only one who is recognised by both the Imperial family and the Japanese government in his koryu. Manaka and Tanemura did not get the same recognition." Any comment?
Saying someone is not a martial artist or that they learned a historically based martial art because they appeared as a character on a TV show is somewhat akin to claiming Cung Le didn't go undefeated in 20 kickboxing matches and 6 MMA fights (the last of which he broke Frank Shamrock's arm) because he's now focusing on playing Martial Law in the Tekken movie. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Maybe when a new soke is appointed a sample from the scrolls in Hatsumi-sensei's possesion will be carbon dated and this whole mess will get put to bed. Until then I'm happy with the style I've studied, the principles it has taught me, and the results I've had in the encounters I've had to use it.
I have also heard this somewhere before, that Hatsumi Soke has done demonstrations for the Imperial family and that he was also acknowledged as a true master of koryu.
"About Dr Hatsumi, we do not discourage further research into his authenticity, but what we can tell you is that he is the only one who is recognised by both the Imperial family and the Japanese government in his koryu. Manaka and Tanemura did not get the same recognition." (quote/The Force) Masaaki Hatsumi has never been recognized by the Japanese Government or the Imperial family as having an authentic, verifiable, Ninjutsu lineage. He received an award for spreading Japanese culture. That has nothing to do with his authentic Ninjutsu claims. It's just another thing that has been twisted and manipulated in a way as to make people believe he has legit Ninjutsu roots.
This entire thread is basically a case of one group of internet sources vs another and one person's word against another. All of the sources that have produced by you are just as suspect due to self interest as the sources which report Hatsumi having a legitimate claim. Anyone trying to cash in on the mystique generated by the popular image of ninja has a definite interest in being the sole source and therefore unless definitely non-interested 3rd party verification is brought in, they aren't of any more value than the scrolls Hatsumi-sensei has. However this: Is an item of some interest. What culture as Hatsumi-sensei spread other than Budo/Ninpo?
Masaaki Hatsumi has without a doubt, brought a lot of foreingers to visit Japan who would have probably not gone if it wasn't for him. Whatever the reason may be, many people have gone to Japan because of him. This let alone, can be seen as introducing people to Japanese culture by just having them visit Japan. It boosts tourism. All governments love that. This doesn't take into account the legitimacy or lack thereof of his claims. Simply put, yes he has brought many foreingers to Japan. The Japanese government never studied his Ninjutsu claims and tried to verify them. It was never about that. They could care less. For the most part, the Japanese government as a whole seems indifferent towards these types of things (except for some local governments where the Ninjutsu arts originated).
I totally agree, the modern Japanese government doesn't place much value on martial arts save that which increases national pride and/or tourism. Which kinda makes this statement: and most things related to said museum a bit suspect doesn't it?
That's why I said in the above statement that the Japanese government as a whole seems indifferent but that local governments who are directly related to Ninjutsu History do take some interest. Shiga is directly related to Ninjutsu History. Hence, they try to study Ninjutsu History and try to preserve it as part of their heritage. What I find suspect is that this Museum is in Shiga. It has ancient Ninjutsu documents. Yet, if you ask them who Masaaki Hatsumi is or Shoto Tanemura they probably won't even recognize their names (even if they do know their names they won't associate them with "real" Ninjutsu). Masaaki Hatsumi and Shoto Tanemura's students have been visiting this place for ages. Is there not something wrong here? Doesn't anyone find it strange that they completely denounce the story of Ninjutsu told by Masaaki Hatsumi? If you ask who Jinichi Kawakami is they will tell you he is the last heir to authentic Ninjutsu...........and they will also tell you it is impossible to train with him (even if you are Japanese). Does this sound like somebody who is out looking for money and fame? The answer is "no." Jinichi Kawakami is as low-key about being related to authentic Ninjutsu as you can get. Yet, this museum holds him up as the last inheritor to authentic Ninjutsu. So, on one end you have a man who stars in kids shows displaying his art with make-believe characters and power-rangers. On the other hand you have a man who has not tried to advertise his art at all, has said basicly nothing to the media, and doesn't take new students.......... and is backed by a Museum. The answer about who is legitimate is obvious to me.
