Authentication and rejection of Ninjutsu from Japan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Silv, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. Silv

    Silv New Member

    The Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum states that Jinichi Kawakami is the last and only heir to authentic Ninjutsu:

    http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html

    They also state he is called the "Last living modern Ninja":

    http://iganinja.jp/en/exp/learning.html

    Banke Shinobinoden (affiliated with Jinichi Kawakami) state that they are the last practitioners of historically authentic Ninjutsu left in the world:

    http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/
    (follow the English link)

    The Book on Banke Shinobinoden's website also confirms this:

    http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/news.html

    On the same webpage it shows a link for the government of Shiga Prefecture, Japan. The link shows Banke Shinobinoden doing a seminar for Shiga Prefecture.

    http://www.pref.shiga.jp/h/m-doboku/konanIC/ibento.html

    The Iga-Ryu Ninja museum is a public museum. It's purpose is to study and preserve ancient Japanese documents related to Ninjutsu. Part of the museum is for tourism but the other part is actually a real museum. They have many ancient documents related to authentic Ninjutsu. Again, they state that Jinichi Kawakami is the last inheritor of historically authentic Ninjutsu.

    *The people you might meet at the museum demonstrating techniques and such are just actors. They are in no way connected to Banke Shinobinoden or Jinichi Kawakami. Banke Shinobinoden is a completely different entity.*

    Banke Shinobinoden is well-documented in Japan.

    Why the confusion over who carries on historically authentic Ninjutsu?

    Why do so many people (outside of Japan) seem to believe Masaaki Hatsumi is related to authentic Ninjutsu? There has never been any proof of this..........why so much confusion?
     
  2. sho'nuff

    sho'nuff Valued Member

    wow. deep
     
  3. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.

    I don't know. Why are you asking us about your confusion?
     
  4. ShadowHunter

    ShadowHunter Living the Dream

    Firstly there doesn't seem to be much confusion and, secondly, until Banke Shinobinoden or Jinichi Kawakami either begin teaching a larger amount of international students or get a website in English then how are people outside of Japan supposed to believe much else?

    If he truly is the last living ninja, good. If not, also good.

    Oh, Silv, don't suppose you've trained with them have you? Just curious.

    EDIT:

    S'ok, according to Wikipedia:

    However on the Bake Shinobinoden website (the freewebs one in English) it says the Banke Shinobinoden group does. When something like this pops up;

    Well known in Japan or anywhere else in the world.

    And you wonder why people doubt his claims or believe Hatsumi more when the only way to even get there is to save up and fly out to Japan to train. Who were the Ban Family and who was Masazo Ishida anyway?

    It really does boggle the mind.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2008
  5. bujingodai

    bujingodai Thinking about it Supporter

    Well Silv presented this with at least some documented backup. i don't know either way. There have been many questions presented to the Kan as well. I think it merits some disucssion. At least there is a source for his post, a decent one at that.

    I'm going to Japan next year, maybe a chance to see this 1st hand if possible. Just to see it.
     
  6. King Satan

    King Satan Banned Banned

    Listen... any family that is connected to ninjutsu has the "right to ninjutsu".
    There are a dozen or so families that have ninjutsu... just for some reason SOME of them have decided to become egotistical and try to market themselves.

    My brother talked to Kiyomoto Sensei and he knows all about this stuff... and he did not denounce or disclaim anything that my brother said....

    so, in the end..

    ..it is all a marketing campaign.


    There is no "last ninja".. because the samurai class does not exist anymore.

    Now, there are only "ninja descendants" (so-to-speak) and there are MANY of them...

    So...find one, study if they teach...and that is all there is to that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2008
  7. King Satan

    King Satan Banned Banned

    Bugei Ryuha Daijiten also confirms what my brother claimed. Yet, for some reason... no one cares...

    Lucky X-kans.. Bugei Ryuha Daijiten proves their claims and everyone listens.. Bugei Ryuha Daijiten proves my brother's claim... no one cares

    *sniffle sniffle* Brings a tear to my eye...

    *mocking tone* It is so unfair !

    lol
     
  8. ShadowCat13

    ShadowCat13 notaninja

    I'm very surprised to find out that there's so mutch documentation on ninjutsu. I'll have to check this out.
     
  9. Silv

    Silv New Member

    I guess someone has to bring the truth out:

    In Japan Masaaki Hatsumi has been ignored by real Japanese scholars. His claims are known to be false and no one in Japan takes his claims seriously. This is why he has a 99%foreign student base. Anyone interested in the validity of his statements should do research by contacting these establishments:

    *Nagano City Board of Education (Nagano is where Togakushi (Togakure) village is located). Ask them if there is proof to Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to Ninjutsu heritage and lineage.

    *Noda-City Board of Education (Masaaki Hatsumi's hometown). Ask them if there is proof to Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to Ninjutsu heritage and lineage.

    *Iga-Ninja Museum (Iga Ninja Museum is the only "Public" Ninja Museum in Japan. Half the establishment is set up for tourism but the other half is actually a "Public Museum." They must be held accountable for their information. Other "so-called" Ninja museums in Japan are "Private" establishments that aren't held accountable to anyone.......such as the Togakushi (Togakure) museum that has ties to Masaaki Hatsumi). Ask the Iga-Ninja Museum if there is proof to Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to Ninjutsu heritage and lineage.

    Don't be surprised if they don't recognize Masaaki Hatsumi's name. Few Japanese do.
     
  10. shadow_priest_x

    shadow_priest_x Moved on

    This is very interesting.

    Until recently I had NEVER heard of anyone disputing Hatsumi's claim. It was always Hatsumi who was the source . . . any other's are pretenders. Why is it that I only here these claims challenging Hatsumi on message boards? And why only recently?
     
  11. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    Wow shadow priest, you must have been hiding under a rock! Do a few forum searches, you will find stuff dating wayyyy back.
     
  12. shadow_priest_x

    shadow_priest_x Moved on

    Hmm, maybe so. I have only recently started getting active in MA forums. Most of my previous knowledge has been gleaned from books or magazine articles and basically all the books that I've read and even all the articles have basically backed up the X-kan story.

    Also, I have to wonder, if the X-kans aren't legit then how did intelligent guys like Stephen Hayes get duped into believing it? And who was Takamatsu really? Where did all these scrolls come from that I've seen pictures of in books related to togakure-ryu? Is the counter-claim that Hatsumi just . . . made it all up?!

    I've also been in contact with Brandon Alvarez, a filmmaker who made a documentary called Shinobi Winds (www.shinobiwinds.com), about the history of ninjutsu and he hasn't seemed to have found any reason to doubt the X-kan claims.

    The only thing that has EVER confused me in the past is this: Donn Draegar (sp?) wrote a book a while back. I read it a LONG time ago when I was a kid. It was about ninjutsu history and I didn't find much in there that lined up with the Bujinkan story. I always assumed that since the origins and history of ninjutsu are shadowy, and Draegar was an outsider with no personal connections to that history, that despite his best efforts he simply got it wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  13. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    As far as I know, Hatsumi Soke helped establish the museum or is at least a contributing party. Correct me if I'm wrong(someone who actually knows)

    And just who are these "real japanese scholars"

    I wish I could take just one detractor seriously. It would be fine if someone said something like "This doesn't make sense to me, therefore, I don't believe the claim", but they don't, they always act like they have soooo much first hand knowledge that their opinion obviously outweighs any opinions of the people that have studied in the x-kans for 20+ years, travel to japan twice a year, and have done a large amount of their own research. Sure bud, you know everything, and no one at the Iga museum has ever heard of Hatsumi, whatever.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  14. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Havent been around very long, have you? Its pretty well known that hatsumi is either teaching BS or if he isnt, it hasnt been and wont be verified.

    Edit: I guess I should clarify and say that this has to do with togakure, and not hatsumi
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  15. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Homebrew for idiots

    One thing that strikes me with all these "claims" is when people start to say the scrolls are only a certain age and so on. They all want proof of scrolls and documentation regarding history.

    Yet they do not say this about the Kuki family. It is known that Takamatsu redone scrolls and helped the Kuki family when most of the scrolls were damaged in fires during WWII. Yet, no one makes claims against the Kuki family regarding their authenticity from scrolls, so why do people keep bringing up the debate on Soke Hatsumi? Why not Tanamura Sensei or Manaka Senei?

    Why do people not make claims against the Wado Ryu as it is not really Koryu. To me it's the dragging up of old news as it is summer and school is out. The low brows of the MA world who mock other systems are let loose from the classrooms and have nothing more to do than regurgitate the same drivel that was seen on e-budo in 1999 and 2000, then it went to MT, BS and now here.

    I wonder if we can make claims against Ushiba and some Judo schools? Or say MMA is not Koryu and has no Kokoro as it is not Budo.... Oh the joy of the keyboard warriors. :D
     
  16. ShadowHunter

    ShadowHunter Living the Dream

    So, Silv, have you actually trained with them and who were the Ban Family and who was Masazo Ishida?

    If you, as you seem to, know everything there is to know and want to walk about challenging peoples lineages then you should be able to answer these questions without any problems.

    Please don't tell me to get in contact with anyone either, I'm asking you since you're the one who posted this.
     
  17. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    See the problem with this is, judo knows it isn't koryu, mma knows it isn't koryu (or at least the people that do it know). The governing bodies for koryu in Japan rejected Hatsumi and Togakure. You can wrap it up in whatever spin you like, but there it is. If people think they know better than them, how about you go and prove it? Circumstantial evidence and thinking Hatsumi is a great guy and not making it up is not verifiable proof that Hatsumi holds an authentic ninja lineage.
    Whining about it isn't going to make the governing bodies change their minds, so if you have some better evidence than has already been provided to them, show it to them........
     
  18. George Kohler

    George Kohler Valued Member

    There are no koryu governing bodies. There are several organizations but none of them govern any koryu. If you told Otake sensei of the Tenshin Sho-Den Katori Shinto-ryu that there is a koryu governing body that governs his ryuha, he would probably laugh at you.

    Any koryu can leave these organizations at anytime if they wish.
     
  19. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    Semantics George. Of course they don't govern the different ryu, but they get to say who is on their list of what they define as koryu, close enough?
    Seems to me that there are plenty of people on these and other forums that want to have a whinge about the fact that what they do doesn't entitle them to be a part of this little club.
    So, to re iterate, if it means so much to all these people, either do a degree in history and investigate yourself, or get over it and realise that Hatsumi doesn't have what they require for membership.
    If it is so important to do something that is recognised as authentic, find a koryu or find a way to get to Japan so you can do a koryu art there.
     
  20. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    This seems to be putting a lot of faith in Stephen Hayes ability and desire to research into Japanese history and be looking at matters objectively and skeptically. I don't see any evidence he is that kind of person nor do I see any reason to be suprised that a foreigner going to Japan back in the 70's might buy into claims without doing critical research... especially when they want to market them back at home! I go to a university that specialises in Asia and yet I still frequently meet people who hold unrealistic and idealistic visions of anything Asian and they often have studied some history!

    Also having scrolls that look old doesn't really mean anything. If they are old and you want to use them as evidence of credibility then at least get them dated by an independent research organisation. As far as I know Hatsumi doesn't permit this which makes the scrolls an entirely unsubstantiated piece of evidence.

    If Hatsumi did help fund the museum A) it wouldn't mean his claims were anymore validated and B) it would be very odd since the website suggests that the museum doesn't consider him an heir to ninjutsu; it doesn't mention his organisation under the question "Are there heirs to the art of ninjutsu today?". I also think since Silv has provided his sources it seems a bit bizarre to suggest he's plucking the information out of the air. I'm not entirely convinced that the organisations he mentions don't have their own agenda but at the same time I just don't buy into the idea that people who have already bought into the Bujinkan and invested over 20 years of their life are likely to be impartial historians.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008

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