Hello All, In this thread I would like to discuss the Techniques of Aikido. Either individual techniques, of groups of techniques. Since I am a Yoseikan Aikidoka, I would like to discuss Sutemi Waza, Sacrifice techniques. So not to cause any confusion most refer to them as sacrifice throws. Basically I want to know who else out there (besides Yoseikan) does them. I trained a Tomiki school while I was visiting family in Sheffield, and the instructor told me that they used to have them in Shodokan Aikido. Can anyone confirm this, and if possible give me some examples. I also have a video of Shimizu Sensei (Aikikai I think) and he does a wonderful Kannuki Hiki Tate Sutemi (bolt lock sacrifice throw, which is the bolt lock from judo (kannuki gatame) for those who know judo, for those that don't, just do a :google: image search). I also have path beyond thought by he who shall not be named (Koyo) does the good old Ashi Domoe Nage (stomach throw). Look forward to the discussion. Regards,
Actually reading into an article on Tomiki, I was surprised to know that he was a famous judoka. Judo usually = Sutemi. Yet when I think of Tomiki Aikido, I never think of Sutemiwaza. Quite perplexing, for someone to be revered as the second Kano.
Tomiki Sensei was addiment that Shodokan Aikido was not Judo, hence judo techniques were excluded from the Aikido syllabus. So I was hoping they have sutemi waza similar to ours (sutemi from locks and chokes). Regards,
It sounds strange but it is the truth. Basically they don't do o soto gari etc because they are judo. I think Shodokan Aikido is meant to compliment Judo. Tomiki's goal in creating Shodokan was along the lines of proving that atemi and te waza could be used in randori. Which it does quite well. This was similar to what Kano Sensei did with grappling techniques in Judo. Regards,
I was wondering if then if you could trace the lineage of the technique such as tomoe-nage and make a few hypotheses? As Ueshiba did learn jujutsu, I would like to know if there were a few sacrifices that were already integral to the art. Might have been that judo expanded the repertoire, which is why you see some of the sutemiwaza in the aikido syllabus. Maybe.
Don't know much about Sumo. I did know that O Sensei did study it to bulk up a bit, cause he was apparently weak and sickly as a kid.
For a technique like tomoe nage it would be hard to define a single school which could be called the source. For example I know it is in Yagyu Shingan Ryu, and that school is over 400 years old. I think it is even in Sumo, I will have to check my references to confirm this. Regards,
Sumo is a wonderful art, great techniques. Several of the Ashi Dori Ho (leg seizing methods) we do in Aikido are supposed to be from Sumo. Regards,
Hi Graham To me aikido is aikido no matter what ryu.O Sensei Ueshiba held Mochizuki sensei in high regard also his teacher (the true 2nd Kano) Mifune sensei. Few give Judo it's true importance in aikido. Most of the original shihan were also judoka so sutemi waza is a part of aikido. The main reason it is not stressed is that we are supposed to imagine more than one attacker at all times. However there are some excellent sutemi used against single attacks particularly if it is a violent attack from a powerfull opponent. Here is a photo I KNOW you will like. The great Mifune sensei regards koyo
Actually, O'Sensei is supposed to have refused to demonstrate in front of Mifune, for fear that he would steal his techniques (I will look for some references). Regards,
I think this statement is one of respect. He knew Mifune was good enought that just by watching him, he could learn his techniques. This is supposed to be how it was in the old days of the Kobukan. You were O'Sensei's uke, so he never taught you, you got thrown about and when he finished you got to try and do what he did. Sugino Sensei said that Mochizuki Sensei was the only one who could do this back then. He would watch O'Sensei, and basically "steal" his techniques, because he wasn't teaching them, in one respect he was still learning how to turn these Daito Ryu techniques he was learning from Takeda into Aikido. Regards,
Hi Graham The story I was told was that Jigoro Kano saw O Sensei demonstrate aikido and said "This is the real Judo" O Sensei requested that Mifune sensei study aikido with him and was told respectfully that Mifune senei was already "performing" aikido when he excuted Judo techniques. One of the older aikido shihan told me that fighting Mifune senei was like fighting an empty jacket. regards koyo
Interesting, I did not know this. I know this demonstration was what lead to Mochizuki being sent by Kano to study with O'Sensei. Interestingly the other gentalman at the demonstration, Nagaoka, responded with "Sensei, then is what we are doing fake judo?" This is true, I have seen his vids on google video, and he moves effortlessly around his uke. Beautiful! Regards,
Very interesting video... Listening to the commentary, this is the first time I've heard refference to the lock Tai Gatame Ude Kujiki outside of Tsutsumi Hozan ryu (the lock itself I've seen before but never heard it under that name). Ditto for Ude Gatama Ashi Kujiki.....althought interestingly enough, the lock doesn't break the leg as the name suggests.....merely crushes the nerves along the calf. I will say for the record this is my least favourite lock to be put in......it hurts like an expletive deleted :love: And Mifune was amazing to watch. Was he doing randori through most of that vid? Amazing.
