This was my first thread/ post to the forum I did this summer. This turned to be a great thread, thanks you everyone who responsed. BTW this is my excuse to be the 100th response to this thread.
You may want to read Roy Suenaka Sensei's book on Aikido (there is only one, so it should be easy to find). He studied under O Sensei while he was a GI during the occupation of Japan, and provides unique testimony on its effectiveness in brawls. He also was the first to open a dojo successfully in Okinawa - attempts before him were spoiled by local karateka going to the dojo and demonstrating their skills on the various sensei! But where others failed to stand up to it, Suenaka succeeded... It varies from dojo to dojo, but in mine, there is certainly practice of and emphasis on good atemi (strikes). Certainly, O Sensei employed them liberally, as you can see in any photo or video of his demonstrations. I think it is important for aikidoka to practice receiving all kinds of attacks, including kicks, and sadly there is not enough emphasis on this most dojos (even mine), but you will find several web resources showing sensei applying techniques against all kinds of kicks and armed attacks. Notably, you may also want to look at Suenaka Sensei's syllabus (Google it!). One last thing - Aikido was developed directly from Daito-Ryu Jujitsu, a classical system under which O Sensei trained. Presumably, some of the Daito-Ryu techniques have found their way into ninjitsu, as they have Hapkido, but it would be a mistake to argue that Aikido 'comes from' ninjitsu. The jo techniques were developed by O Sensei in part from Shinto Muso-Ryu, and allegedly in part from the Yamabushi, a sect of mountain priests. His bokken kata are an eclectic form of kendo and Daito-Ryu kenjutsu techniques, as far as I am aware.
Re: Re: Aikido in a "Real Fight" Lol 2 years? Stick to talking about aikido because you know nothin about BJJ. Brazilian jujitsu is probably the easiest martial arts to teach not counting boxing. I met somone who claimed he practiced aikido back in philly. We had a friendly spar goin. I faked a punch he reacted and i dove for his ankles. I passed his guard easier than a greezed water slide on a hot summer day. I donno but maybe he just started taking aikido but he was really cocky due to the fact he was 50lbs over me. At the time I had been taking ju jitsu for about a month and a half. I had personal lessons from a relative.
I would not say BJJ is a complicated art It is so good because of its simplicity and its been pressure tested. Aikido takes so long to learn because of its lack of effectiveness and that it tries to do all its SD with minimal strength and is far from a complete art. Aikido is not complicated as there are not many moves involved in its core teachings, its hard to make it work as it relies on so many things being right and the attacked over doing his punches etc. It takes 6 years because it is a far less effective style, granted there may be good fighters out there at SD but I think there are many more who have no ability really. No one wants to do a martial art for 6 years before they can get a basic level of SD, kind of defeats the object if you ask me. :Angel:
Sonshu. PREACH ON!!! TESTIFY!!! HALELUYAH!! But seriously hes right about the martial arts shouldnt take soo long to learn. Especially pure self defense arts like aikido.
Just calling it as I see it I train with BJJ guys and have trained and studied Aikido as well. I found I could not trust the versions that are simerler to Jujitsu as it felt like I never had hold of anyone to control them. I like to control people as you know whats going on more and levels of compliance and many students look at you when you do not move from there wrist lock. Hey I was putting minimal resistance in it but still they did not seem to believe in there moves much themselves. This has been the three times I have tried to get to grips with this art as well.
Can I just mention that boxing is a truly ineffective martial art as some guy threw a punch at me which I evaded and effectively countered involving quite a bit of pain to him. Good God gents, maybe you just weren't very good at aikido. Maybe it was beyond you, and Sonshu you must secretly really want to learn it if you have attempted to do so 3 times. Have you tried a proper instructor instead of a book?
Never done Aikido from a book Trained with a few 4th Dans so I guess they should know what they are doing. However my guy feeling of if they could defend themselves from me was minimal if I am honest. Also Boxers who are good will close you down so quickly as there shots are so quick that it will take you a good 3 blows to be landed before you can perfrom a simple tenkan. Thats the difference! Hey I really wanted to learn Aikido, I took what I could from it and left the majorits as there are some great moves in it but so many ones that for me Jujitsu does better.
Two interesting quotes from Ueshiba Sensei: "In a real battle, atemi (punching/kicking) is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent" "Atemi accounts for 99% of Aikido" I think that this (and I'll speak carefully as I'm not an Aiki practioner, but it's on my to do list) is something thats lost on a lot of modern Aikido schools. O Senei acknowledged that you needed to punch/kick to get to a position where you could apply you technique in context. Unfortunately it seems like a lot of modern schools have so de-emphasize Atemi that they have begun to neuter the art. This is similiar to trend to teach Tai Chi for the medicinal purposes. In any case it seems like Aiki Jujitsu might be more up the original posters alley.
Sonshu, I don't mean to really have a go but I'm talking about self-defence using Aikido from a stand point that I have used it and lived. A 4th Dan may be good but as in any style if all you practice is movement and technique without practical application then you are cheating yourself of a valuable lesson. Too many aikidoka seem to have this belief that there techniques must look beautiful and have minimal effort. Minimal does not mean none however and different opponents require different degrees of effort to the techniques. Maybe it is this false belief of instant spiritual benevolence and kindness to all animals that stops aikidoka from applying proper technique. Maybe they have no idea how messy a technique can get in a pressure environment of a ring or street situation. But as I keep on saying, it is the person and what they put into their style that will result in what they get out of it. Otherwise we would have every student of Jeet Kune Do whupping every body in the street like Bruce Lee, every kick-boxer would be like Bill Wallace etc. Do you get my point? Regarding techniques being too complicated to be effective from early on then think again. Are you telling me a novice boxer without ring experience or a <insert martial art here> student without street training will be able to cope well in a real life struggle. Barring their already inherent personality then they will also be at a loss. Initial difficulty experienced by all is a lack of knowledge regarding the appropriate technique at the necessary time. Aikidoka are no different than anyone else. Yet if I teach a basic technique such Kotogaeshi to an experienced jujitsu or kung fu guy then they will have a greater percentile chance of being able to apply the technique at the appropriate time. Things go pear shaped when you try a technique that is inappropriate to the situation. I respect your decision to take what you felt was good to you and that you have found jujitsu better to your mindset and physicality. I however have done both and favour the aikido side as my body just 'prefers' it. I can make it work in real life but I'm not adverse to a little of something else also. Guess that's experience for you.
Disaster Master please take head out of behind It is an individual who enters a contest. Most aikidoka would never of dreaming of entering an MMA. Haven't seen many kendo or iaido guys either but I wouldn't say their skill set is useless. You seem to have this impression that a style is only effective if it destroys exponents of other martial arts. Yup, where I live in the world even babies are masters of ninjitsu or kung fu. I quake in my boots at the ineffectiveness of my style and fear my safety at all times. Please. I can't believe I'm still being confronted by this level of martial arts ignorance. What next? You going to challenge me to a fight to prove once and for all that your style is better than my style. Shall we go to the toilet and compare peckers? Cause I wee higher does that make mine better and yours useless? get a grip and shed the ignorance.
Aikido if you take it to the Atemi side and in order to be able to use if effectivly it goes back to its original form and for me it just becomes jujitsu. People want to make it this light technique and as you said in the real world things get messy. This is what happens and Aikido people that I have learnt from - and there are lots for me seem un accustomed to what happens if it goes wrong or what happens if your first technique goes wrong. These are points that and respecting SD martial art really needs to conside and Aikido is the least physical art I have done.
“Disaster Master please take head out of behind” Ad Hominem attacks do not prove your position. MMA competitions are the only way we have to compare the different styles empirically.
I have flu so I apologise if I get a bit testy and juvenile. I understand your point but the thread is regarding aikido in a real fight. Not a competition bound by rules.
Yeesh! This thread is going nowhere, if the original poster wants to find out if it's effective or not he/she can try it out for themselves, it's pretty pointless not to mention stupid asking "wether it will work?" on an internet forum. If you want to know wether it will work you can try it out for yourself as simple as that, I have seen it and it looked good enough to me, I'd probably get my arm tore off by one of them, but then that's my opinion. |Cain|
Re: Aikido if you take it to the Atemi Interesting question... where does jujistu stop and Aikido begin? Probably worthy of another forum thread. Especially when you look at "hard" Aikido types like Yoshinkan Aikido. Ok... I'm off to start my first MAP thread!
NHB isn't even an art...it's a MIXED martial art combat sport. How can you compare pure Aikido to some hybrid art that was created? Of course a NHB fighter can eventually triumph over an Aikidoka. Why? Because the NHB fighter is an evolved fighter who more or less trains in all the unarmed ranges of combat...sort of a "JKD-ish" type of thinking. NHB is comprised of a combination of arts. Aikido is only a single traditional style developed for the mid to close range. You have to keep in mind that PURE arts all have advantages and disadvantages. Aggressive striking arts can fall short in the face of grappling arts. Grappling arts can sometimes fall short in the range of striking arts...etc etc. Striking and grappling can both fall short in the face of weapons, etc etc. In the realm of a streetfight, there are so many factors and variables that can change at the drop of a hat. You cannot expect a single art like Aikido to be the cure for all that. Keep in mind Aikido centers around movements of the ken. Bring that up to modern times and it is effective for static grabbing situations and/or situations where opponents are reaching to you or charging to you. Tons of law enforcement ppl, security ppl, bouncers, etc use some component of aikido or aiki-like arts. I have unfortunately had to resort to using components of Aikido during real life scenarios...however, as with a PURE art, it must be modified for the street because the street scenario is an ever changing scenario.
Sorry, Nicolo, but as a keen aikidoka myself, I can't agree that it is a 'pure' martial art, or in fact that that there is any such thing. Aikido is a highly eclectic amalgam of bits and pieces that O-Sensei took from several martial arts, in which I believe lies its strength. Even something as 'pure' as Okinawan karate orginated in Chinese kung-fu, which again allegedly may have had origins in India... So if there's any such thing as a pure martial art, then Aikido's not it, and it's not right for us to look down on modern hybrids - because Aikido is really just that.
