Aikido in a "Real Fight"

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by xplasma, Jun 17, 2003.

  1. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    I use kote gaeshi just as a threat to make people reactive. Same for nikyo (we called it nidan in jujutsu) though I think it's a bit higher % overall thanks to the better wrist grip. The most effective wristlock on the ground imo is by far the gooseneck in all its variations. I catch people with it pretty regularly :)
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think you may be too restricted in your requirements for demonstrating Aikido. The roots of Aikido are from many arts, but primarily the unarmed is from Jujutsu, I believe. I would expect an Aikido demonstration to be primarily jujutsu with only key times actually being able to see Aikido. I think a more indication of something not being Aikido is when Aiki principles are neglected.

    Uke in Aikido are trained to attack in ways that help demonstrate Aikido. Most others would not really attack that way, so most of the time you will only see Jujutsu or something more "primitive". Any Aikido will be in the body language and superior attitude, not seen in the technique... that is until the opportunity for Aikido comes.

    I've posted this video before of Kyuzo Mifune. He was one of the Judo greats and never studied Aikido, but I've heard that Morihei Ueshiba (founder of Aikido) said that Mifune had great Aikido. Can you see where the Judo turns to a demonstration of Aikido? Is it at specific points, or is Aikido ever present in all? I'm sure opinions will vary.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qerg7l-iwmk"]Kyuzo Mifune, The Best Judo Master - YouTube[/ame]

    Nevertheless, the principle of Aiki can exist outside of Aikido.

    Edit: I probably should say how I see Aikido and Judo in the video. To keep things simple, the Judo is mainly when Mifune uses his grab to perform technique, the Aikido is demonstrated mainly where Mifune uses the opponent's grab against them for technique. This is very simplified but I hope makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The techniques are Jujutsu. The method of folding the fingers into an ever smaller circle is the form of kote gaeshi that best fits the principle of Aiki, opposed to breaking the wrist by bending it in a direction it is not supposed to bend. The latter being thought to be Jujutsu.

    So I like your post because it isn't the technique but what principles are emphasized in application of technique that defines things. Same techniques exist across many martial schools, but how they are applied can differ based on which principles are emphasized and/or neglected.

    What makes Aikido are the principles emphasized.
     
  4. Thaistory

    Thaistory New Member

    Tried it myself

    I tried my best to apply aikido in a real life attack scenario.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG8sRQr7rVc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG8sRQr7rVc[/ame]

    Yes, I knew I was going to be attacked from behind with a choke. So, it was a practice session. But, the attack came at full force. Bruised chest the next day...

    Any constructive comments are most welcome.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Cool, I bet your training partner was sore after that.

    Some comments:
    1) Have your training partner test your pin to make sure he can't get out.
    2) When pinning your partner, make sure to check for multiple attackers
    3) Have training partner pull you backwards before locking in the choke hold some of the time to mix it up.
    4) Have training partner switch to left arm choke, again to mix it up.
    5) Have training partner hold training knife (wear eye protection when you do this) to make sure you are properly executing the technique to lock the elbow otherwise the training knife will slit your own throat.

    6) After pinning, do something besides just drop the arm. Depends on what kind of tactical training you are going for. For example, place the arm behind partner's back as if you are going to hand-cuff him is one tactical procedure.

    7) Have partner fake tap out to see if you let go. If you let go, that is probably due to training, but that is okay, just make sure to move on to a superior position so that you can reapply a lock/pin. If you don't let go, then make sure you are being safe in training. Again to mix things up.

    8) Have partner come up and put his arm around you as a friend. See if you can protect yourself while assessing the situation to know it isn't appropriate to hurt them badly because it is your friend, maybe he is drunk or just being friendly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  6. Thaistory

    Thaistory New Member

    Wow. Thanks for all these tips. Will definitely look into them.

    Just one mention: my training partner is just a work colleague who never practiced aikido.

    And yes, he was sore too. :)
     
  7. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I personally make a distinction between technique and application. For me technique is having the understanding of how the move should be performed correctly and having the coordinated skills to smoothly perform the move. You clearly have good technique.

    Application is performing the move on actively resisting opponent. One cannot have good application without good technique, however one can have good technique but poor application.

    I do not believe that you show good application in the video. I am not saying that you cannot apply technique. Just that I do not see it in the video.

    The reason I say this is that none of the attacks was an effective attack. To attack someone effectively from behind you need to pull them backwards off balance. To pull the head back, or wrap the neck and then drop back or stamp the back of the leg for example. At no time did the attacker attempt to get you off balance. he Just hung off you.

    All you need to do is to practice getting your partners to be better bad guys. One way to do this is to start to practice technique but from when you are in a position with your balance broken. e.g start static, the attacker puts arm around your neck, then you let them take a step back so that you are off balance and they are in balance. Then you apply the technique. Once you are happy with that let them pull you back and stamp the back of your kneed down and really get their shoulder over the top of yours for a more effective control.

    Like I say your technique is good but they are done entirely from a position of balance. To turn technique into application you need to practice starting from a position when your balance is broken but the attackers balance is strong, you need to restore your balance, then break theirs.

    Buy the way, nice sound tack. Living in london we don't have enough bird song.
     
  8. Thaistory

    Thaistory New Member

    Thank you for your comment. It gave some some great food for though.

    I guess what we tried to do was "an attack in motion"...

    But I totally see the validity of your points. Thanks once again.

    (And yes, we have birds singing all year long in Bangkok!)
     
  9. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    This is a self defense video yet it violates one of the most important rules of SD by showing the person turning their back to their attacker while casually walking away every single time. Even if you think the attacker is neutralized, you never ever do that. Also, as it is very often the case with compliant demos, the problem isn't necessarily with the initial attacks - though they certainly don't look very forceful to me - but with the passivity that ensues. The attacker just stands there (or just stays bent over) like a puppet waiting for his comeuppance. That's not how realistic attacks happen. People disengage, scramble, swing away, bullrush... If the uke is unable to deal with *that* type of sustained pressure, the techniques don't mean much though their principles may be sound.
     
  10. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    Sure. But if the attacker begins unbalanced or if he's not actually trying to get you, then what principle has been demonstrated? I'm not sure that any principle has been demonstrated, and that was the point of my point, above.


    Actually I have a couple videos of Mifune bookmarked on my home computer. I'm awestruck when I watch him. He embodied the "ju" of ju -- the willow branch bending in the wind. I cannot tell it apart from "ai" in aikido -- blending in harmony.
     

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