Trump by name......

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Dead_pool, Dec 9, 2015.

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  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    What reason do you think neo Nazis and white supremacist want to keep the statues up for?

    It's not historical nuonce.....
     
  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Worth noting WHEN they were erected as well; it's not a coincidence that most were put up during the institution of Jim Crow laws and the Civil Rights movement.
     
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  3. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Yes, and -- and there's more. There was an aspect, too, of healing the rift of the "War of Northern Aggression." The statues were meant in part to heal the nation. And the Constitution itself says Blacks and Indians are subhuman, so it's not entirely fair to lay that on the backs of the people who were alive "four score and seven years" later in time. They inherited a Constitution written and signed by such eminent men as George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton (isn't there a musical by that name?).

    But you're right, it's probably not a bad idea to move them to museums and/or graveyards. That's probably a very good idea.
     
  4. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Actually it doesn't. The Constitution very specifically avoids any references to race except in a couple of areas. It refers to "Indians not taxed" as being excluded from determining the number of representatives from each state. It also says "three fifths of all other persons" (meaning slaves) in order to prevent the slave holding states from counting all of their slaves toward determining the number of their representatives as they wanted. It never refers to blacks and Indians as not on a par with whites, although a great many people think that it does. :)
     
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  5. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Oh, would that your interpretation had dominated the courts all those years. I like it better. :(
     
  6. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    I do also. Here is something that I still find to be quite alarming about that though. The fact that the original Constitution totally avoids any reference to race was prominently used, along with the wording of the fourteenth amendment, to force desegregation during the civil rights movement of the sixties. Despite this, most people still believe, as you did, that the Constitution itself is racist due to the decisions handed down by racist Supreme Court judges. Why is this idea still so widely held, and why is the public not more familiar with the actual wording of the Constitution.

    Just food for thought.
     
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  7. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    The courts interpret statutes, regulations, and the Constitution, tell us what it all means. Said another way, the courts tell us what the law is. I might disagree and you might disagree, but at the end of the day, I'm not a judge and you're not a judge, so our opinions are just that - opinions. That's why it matters who sits on the Supreme Court.

    It often got drowned out by emotional fervor over "The Wall" and whatnot, but last year before the the election, there were a lot of people grudgingly supporting Trump only and specifically for the Supreme Court justices. They absolutely did not want Hillary Clinton appointing 2, 3, maybe even 4 new justices. Pull up a list of their ages and health concerns, and you'll see that there's almost a 100% chance that Trump will appoint a replacement for Ginsburg, and there are good odds on Kennedy and Breyer.
     
  8. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Because that doesn't spell oppression for a shot tin of Americans.
     
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  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  10. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Non-Trump supporters were the ones initiating violence against the police in Phoenix, so you might have that flipped around. (shrug)

    I haven't looked it up myself, but the talk host on the radio said they were mostly put up by Democrats.
    ... Wait, what?
     
  11. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    It turns out parties change over time...
     
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  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If so, were they using deadly force?
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    are you really going to play that game? or is that just something that some "talk show host" says? give me a break.
     
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  14. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    kind of interesting when the whole reason the south votes republican can be traced to the voting rights act.

    Why the Center Does Not Hold: The Causes of Hyperpolarized Democracy in America by Richard H. Pildes :: SSRN

    america isn't racist though. especially the president. nope, not a racist. /s

    oh wait...from the president's own twitter feed...

    Jerry Travone on Twitter

    i just love how trump voters have been bending over backwards since the primary to show they're not racist, and literally every day there's more and more examples showing, yeah, they're probably racist. the president is definitely a racist, his attorney general is definitely a racist, the "chief strategist" whatever that means is definitely a racist... and on and on it goes....
     
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  15. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    No. Neither side did. Fortunately. But at least one arrestee had a gun tucked in his pants when he was arrested for getting out of his car and shoving the police officer. :rolleyes: I guess you really can't fix stupid.

    My favorite is the protestor who came prepared with a tear gas mask, and when the police threw a canister he kicked it back to them, and then (I'm trying not to laugh) a police officer shot him in the nuts with a pepper ball. Now, as a general rule I'm not in favor of shooting people or hitting people in the nuts, but -- come on, he asked for that. And next week over a beer he's going to be laughing about it, too.

     
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  16. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Personally, I don't care at all which "party" put them up. In today's political climate, parties are simply another nod to tribalism. They used to mean something, but now they're used as another way to produce an 'us vs. them' mindset to get people to blindly do what they're told. Today's politician is solely concerned with money and power. Ideals and principles have gone the way of integrity, and have totally succumbed to greed and ambition. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to get that bus out of the ditch that it's been driven into.
     
  17. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Well, there's a certain interest for the sake of history and historical context; e.g., today's Republican Party actually does trace back to Abraham Lincoln. But all humans trace back to Mesopotamia, too, and rarely does that matter to a conversation. So, ya -- amen to what you said. I completely agree that that there is the problem. Well stated.
     
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i have to disagree with you.

    i know several state and federal politicians. and they're incredibly hard-working and committed to their constituents. i know it's really easy to be cynical. but what your positing is not true.
     
  19. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    The bus frequently gets taken out of the ditch the same way in a lot of circumstances, through violence. People dying does a lot to change peoples thinking. Either one side wins and their ideology becomes unifying (because those who disagree are either dead or will fear speaking at that point), or both sides come to an agreement and learn to talk to each other.

    Right now you have two groups of people trying to pull the bus out the ditch, and they are on opposite sides pulling against each other, so that bus goes nowhere. You either have to come to an agreement and pull together, or go kill everyone with the rope on the other side to get it out. Right now each side has terms and conditions that are unacceptable to the other side for the whole "let's work together" bit.

    The statue situation in my opinion is an aesthetic issue to the current political and ideological issues going on. I lean more towards taking the statues down, but I'm also not indoctrinated into one side so heavily that I can't see legitimate concern or want for keeping the statues up. Surface issues certainly do help polarize people though.
     
  20. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Interesting. I know Republicans who are not racist, yet who voted for Trump. One of them is my first aikido teacher. He's Black and a political activist in the city of Los Angeles. Will you agree on the basis of those facts that no Republican who voted for Trump is a racist?

    No, no, no -- I get that individuals can be individuals. The actual point is that the birds-eye view I see is a clear "us v. them" with broken promises. Like Philosoraptor pointed out, party positions change. How can party positions change without the party leaders changing their principles??
     
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