Aikido in a "Real Fight"

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by xplasma, Jun 17, 2003.

  1. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I think one of the big difficulties with making aikido actually work is the level of committed force required to make the techniques work. No one is pulling any of the techniques from a non-committed attack. When you work in sparring the goal is to commit as little as possible so as not to expose yourself which means you have much more limited opportunity to use aikido technique. I'd say I've only ever really pulled off aikido techniques maybe 0.5% of the time in sparring but when I have it's from a hook, cross, or other well committed strike or grab. Of course you have to be nice if you start using the locking throws as some of them are rather likely to cause damage to joints if you wrench them.

    I think the biggest issue is the focus on outdated attacks. Sure shomen-uchi, yokomen-uchi, and tskui are great for transfer to committed attacks with weapons. Some of the grabs are still somewhat relevant when you're talking about weapon retention and some for grappling. On the whole though I think it needs a major refocus on how to work well against boxing, wrestling, etc. even if it's focus is still on working technique against committed attacks.
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    A video of mine I have shared many times before, but in the light of this discussion it is pertinent - again I am NOT an Aikidoka, but this technique has a distinct Aikido flavour to it and shows that it CAN be drilled under pressure if so desired

    Attack commitment/power was set at 75%

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQKtRZXNetE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQKtRZXNetE[/ame]
     
  3. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Agreed. The pervasion of unrealistic energy in training (overly committed attacks) coupled with a lack of actual intent (no intent to connect or enforce will physically) are real issues. I've never seen an Aikido demo or training session (and I've sat in on a black belt class at the flagship school of a respected 9th Dan) that ever approached realistic energy... It's always lunging off balance overcommitted strikes intended to feed the Tori their technique at all costs and go with even the most uncommanding application of force.

    Edit - correction: 8th Dan.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  4. Crucio

    Crucio Valued Member

    I see some similarities to some koryu arts and aikido and karate. Many people that do them seem to think that just by doing them will automatically put them on the same path as the founders, samurai..ninja, Bruce Lee, what have you. But when you look at the kind of training the founders had, in this case Ueshiba with Sokaku, it's completely different to the flower power-peace on earth-to deadly to spar-feeling-etc mentality.

    I do think that there are significant differences in styles based on the intended application, but what makes one great is the attitude IMO, not the style. Give me a serious boxer to watch my back any day compared to a "practitioner" of deadly jujutsu(J).
     
  5. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I agree. This is often a great frustration for me. I've been thrown around enough to have full confidence in aikido's potential, but appropriate training partners are becoming harder and harder to find, in my world anyway. :mad: :cry:


    Here I disagree. The grabs are for you to learn how to move your body under the attacker's full pressure. It's supposed to be full strength, full commitment to freezing you in place like a vice. When you can move around that and take his balance, then you can handle a less-balanced attacker. Likewise the odd sword-cut strikes are supposed to teach the "angles of attack" concept found in FMA. In FMA, the idea is that it doesn't matter what the strike is. It's going to come from one of these 5, 9, 10, 12, 14, whatever directions. Well, aikido has 3 directions. And western boxers have only 4 punches total. :dunno: Same concept.
     
  6. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    :happy: That was beautiful. Essentially an ikkyo-tenkan takedown (could have been an arm drag, but they're closely related) with the textbook ikkyo pin.
     
  7. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

    What do you mean by this? You're having a hard time finding training partners to pressure test with full comitment and intent?
     
  8. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Yes but that's not always what's going to happen.

    Less committed doesn't mean less balanced though. A lot of the kuzushi in Judo used to set up throws and sweeps, I would wager most aikidoka would have trouble with because their opponent isn't trying to shove them backward full force. Now the aikido principles, structure, balance, sensitivity and some of the techniques certainly helped me in grappling but it's not exactly plug-and-play.

    Not exactly. A hook and yokomen-uchi both come from a fairly similar angle but defending them is quite different. The same goes for shomen-tskui aimed to the chest and a right cross or jab to the face. The aikido strikes are just not equivalent to what most people are going to hit you with, trained or otherwise.
     
  9. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Not wanting to speak for him , this is also one of my biggest gripes in Aikido , strikes tend to be taught only as something to be defended against , this is very different to teaching someone to strike to actually hit.
    I find the only time I get an attack with realistic pressure is when I can get hold of a senior grade with other (kickboxing , Karate etc) training , this can change things significantly.
     
  10. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I actually hate this kind of reasoning, its akin to the wing Chun guys saying look Machida fights in a wing Chun sort of way, there for wing Chun works, if the only example if an art working comes from someone who doesn't do said art then that's even more evidence that the art andespecially the methods used to train it essentially dead
     
  11. embra

    embra Valued Member

    First off, my Aikido days are well passed me now.

    Not sure if Facebook' vids are embeddable outside of FB. However, Chiba completely unscripted - shows how to use timing, entry, evasion and movement to overcome seemingly an impossible situation - but it is still training, not real life.

    https://www.facebook.com/sonoranaikikai/videos/836643483117735/?pnref=story

    Answering a few folks on this thread and some others generally negative towards TMA:-

    For sure trying to get out the Aiki Hong Fuey book to execute Kote-gaeshi or Shiho-nage, is destined to failure.

    You have to use the art's building blocks to adapt to the situation - and you need to know something other than just the 'syllabus' - preferably as much kickboxing as possible of 1 form or another, how to cover your head in close, use your elbows and lots of other stuff BUT Aiki movement is 1 of the best MAs around for multiple attackers - training - for real you have do your bit for real somewhere, somehow.

    Koyo told me of Chiba parting an Orange Walk march through 1970s Central Glasgow - simply by his presence.

    No amount of ring-craft can teach you that.

    https://www.facebook.com/sonoranaikikai/videos/836643483117735/?pnref=story
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  12. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I disagree. If you gave me two or three aikido lessons I could use it on anyone. Only because I'm well versed in timing, pressure, striking and distance. It doesn't work the other way around.
     
  13. fortunado

    fortunado Valued Member

    i'm loath to reveal the schools where i trained or reveal the names of any instructor or student out of respect for them and the school and keeping bushido in mind. do not go after the people who trained me, helped me, and practiced with me.


    i doubt it matters if i learned from an eddie bravo book or a jean jaques machado book how to fight the guard, clock choke, or jujigatame.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    There is a logic to that, but JJJ/Aikido are pretty close in essence and that technique was directly JJJ albeit Gendai
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Evasions noted and suspicions confirmed
     
  16. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Disagree.

    You can be honest and sincere no matter who those people are. You could even post them via a PM to a member who will be discrete and post about them without having to expose them. Not speaking for everyone here, but I would think a lot of us had under-par instructors at one time or another
     
  17. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Yes, in aikido. Benson Henderson of the UFC has a MMA gym where I presently live but I was talking only about aikido.

    Until recently I lived outside Los Angeles. The two dojos that were nearest to me -- not up to my standards. The Culver City dojo, though -- excellent. I miss it so very, very much. But I recently moved to west Phoenix where there are no good aikido dojos. I've been looking but not finding on all sides of the Valley. :cry:

    I used to think that too, but over time I came to see that they're not so different. Sure, there are many possible particular defenses, some of which only work for a hook and other that only work on a yokomen (just to take that angle), but underneath their surface differences there is a common underlying ... principle, or something. I don't know the word, but there is a common something that makes them be the same. It's like an old quote from a shihan I heard many, many years ago: "There is only one technique in aikido: uke falls down."
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What specifically about "bushido" are you keeping in mind?
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015
  19. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    We'd only go after your trainers if they sucked.
     
  20. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    During a real fight or situation what ever needs doing has to be done and,honestly, no one can say in great detail what they did. Theres a vague idea but its not clear.
    So anyone claiming they know exactly what they did to the detail is either exagerating or just being biased towards what they wanted to have happened.
    I think being biased is a major issue. We see what we want to see. We invest time in things and dont want it to have been wasted or be wrong.
    This happens alot. Everyone looks at a cloud and sees different things.
    And so an aikido guy could have a fight or situation, deal with it, and the slightest hint towards anything aikido, to them, will indicate Aikido working. It was more likely a total mess and whatever happened, happened.
    To be fair an element of Aikido might have worked but its more likely an element thats universal to fighting and found in any other functional style. Wrestling has effective wrist and hand fighting. If a person wanted to they could just say, thats also found in Aikido . Its kind of true, but kind of not true. But just true enough.

    Also I think the idea that needs destroying is that anyonec can say what will happen or need to be done before a fight or situation has even started.
    Its not a good idea for an aikido guy or any stylist to think before its kicked off that they will do aikido..or whatever .
    It has to be made up on the spot and go with whatever is happening. If an element of aikido pops up and comes out within the fundamentals so be it... but cant be forced in.
    Once it kicks of anyway..in a real deal fight..chaos..intensity..the lot....no matter how anyone stands or starts it ends up looking the same..two guys going at it. Both might start in nices stances with the intention to be aikido or whatever...but once its going off it always resorts back to how anyhuman looks during a fight.
    The thing to do is accept this and start by trying to be able to do it all in the chaos with intensity, rather than look good and look like a certain style. We just look how we look which is pretty messy.
     

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