History: Deep vs. Higher Karate Stances

Discussion in 'Karate' started by cejames, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. cejames

    cejames Valued Member

    Greetings and Salutations: :bow1:

    I believe that the deep stances seen in systems like Shotokan are there as a result of the effort to install karate into the school systems. It was also in Shotokan to build leg strength (which was its purpose in the school systems as well.).

    What I would like is any references you the reader might have that either verifies this as true of refutes it as false. Something I can research and verify.

    Sincerely,

    Charles J. :argue:
     
  2. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I don't have any references for this, but I don't believe the stances have much to do with the school system. I thought they were more a product of Yoshitaka Funakoshi who, before his illness, focused more heavily on the physical athleticism aspect of karate than his father had, and introduced low stances simply because they made the training more physically "callisthenic" and produced a fitter, more athletic karate student.

    The move towards implementing karate in the school system was, I believe, more of an issue for Yasutsune Itotsu and Gichin Funakoshi. By the time Yoshitaka Funakoshi and subsequently Masatoshi Nakayama were the key influences on the development of shotokan, I get the impression that it was established as an activity for University jocks rather than school children - which is why so many of the subsequent generation of JKA instructors came through the university system.
     
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    what moosey said. it's mostly anecdotal evidence and oral history, but it's very accepted that it was gigo/yoshitaka, probably along with nakayama who were responsible for it. if you look at the REALLY old shotokan footage, the movements were a lot shorter, and it was essentially stiff shorin-ryu. nakayama is also considered the one responsible for "modern" shotokan, yet his own karate was noticeably shorter in movement (although not massively so), leading to the possible conclusion that the adoption of "longer" karate happened more around his time as head of the JKA than around the lifetimes of both funakoshis.
     
  4. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    All we can really rely on is comparing the old ways to the modern. Even comparing Gichin Funakoshi to his son Gigo, you can see they both have different stances.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Rj4B4Mc5Q&feature=related"]YouTube - Gichin Funakoshi VS Isao Obata ( KUMITE)[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Oi7ACsh_c&feature=related"]YouTube - Gigo Funakoshi heian godan[/ame]
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I suggest you look at the origins of karate. The deep stances were there from the beginnings of karate. Documents like the Bubishi may have diagrams and descriptions of what you are looking for.

    For instance, [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Karate-Bubishi-Patrick-McCarthy/dp/0804820155#_"]Amazon.com: The Bible of Karate Bubishi (9780804820158): Patrick McCarthy: Books[/ame]


    Nevertheless, you could also go by what my first karate sensei, Chinen Sensei (and also Hartwig Sensei and Higaonna Sensei) basically told me, that the wide stances were for beginners to help to build proper structure. As you progressed, your base (stance) got shorter for mobility but you did not lose the leverage and power gained from the wider base due to your training.

    This does not contradict using a low stance for other reasons, such as attacking a low target, deception, and defense. Just because base gets shorter as you get better doesn't mean that you might not choose to use a low stance when needed.
     
  6. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    When I was training in karate on Okinawa, all of our stances were much shorter than those I do during formal kihon in Kyokushin now. I think it's the difference between the Okinawan karate and the "Japan-ified" karate.
     
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I've noticed differences in the length of zenkutsu dachi between different branches of karate, but shiko dachi, kiba dachi, and Sanchin dachi were not significantly different. It depended on the individual how wide was right for them at the time.

    The kata have wide stances, both Okinawan and Japanese.

    Fighting stances like han zenkutsu dachi were shorter because they were for application and mobility, they weren't kihon.

    I suppose the times when you actually notice the difference is in line drills. In Goju we did line drills in fighting stances (shorter) but I do see in Shotokan it is done often with the longer stances like in kata.

    Maybe this has more to do with the teachers and how they were taught.

    How many kickboxers from Japan fight in a long stance? How many kickboxers come from a karate background? Seems they have adapted to the shorter, more shoulder width stances for fighting in most of the cases.
     
  8. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I think the first easily veririable point of reference should be Funakoshi's 1925 book. Here you see photos of Gichin Funakoshi demonstrating a range of stances that are rather smaller than their Shotokan descendents.

    I suspect that the process of deepening was promoted by Gichin but taken even further by Gigo. If you look at the (admittedly poor quality) video of Gichin Funakoshi demonstrating kata in the 1920s there's also footage of an early Shotokan gashaku. I don't know for certain that this is filmed in the 1920's but I'm assuming that to be the case. The stances are already deepening compared to the stills in Funakoshi's book, so it seems clear that the process was already underway in the 1920's. Its also worth noting that Funakoshi demonstrates Naihanchi using quite a deep shikodachi, although all the evidence I'm aware of is that it was previously done in a rather smaller naihanchi-dachi (which for some has evolved into kibadachi).

    Mike
     

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