The Kuk Sool Kwan -Baek Pal Ki Hyung thread got me thinking and I finally started to pull some of the published information together to form a rough incomplete timeline. Feel free to fill in the blanks and make corrections, but please document where the info came from. 1910 Myung Duk Suh Comes back Home (Kuk Sool by He Young Kimm) 3/5/1939 KSN Born (World's Best: A legendary Story of Grandmaster In Hyuk Suh by Moon Young Kim, Samtoh 2004) At 5 years old KSN began training with his grandfather Myung Duk Suh after showing a feat of determination by hanging on to a tree brach. (WB) 1952 Myung Duk Suh passes away (Kuk Sool) KSN Recieves 5 books handed down from his grandfather: Yu Sool, Kwan Sool, Yu-Kwan Sool, Whal Bup, Hyul Bup (Kuk Sool Won Textbook #1) Hai Dong Sum Nim (Kuk Sool Won Textbook #1) Training at Kwan-Eum-Sah temple (WB) Visit to Hae-In Sah temple (WB, Red Book) Visits to Tong Do Sa Temple, and Temples in Pusan, Kim Hae, Masan, Jin Joo, Yang San, Chung Moo, Chang yung, Hool San, and Kyung Nam Do Area -- Former Karak kingdom – KSN uses information found to create the sword dance form, double short sword, double long sword (Kuk Sool By In Sun Seo [Red book 87]) Visit to Kyung Ju, Tae Gu, Yong Chun, Sun San, Sang Ju, Hoe Hang, An Dong, Kyung Bok Do -- long sword, reverse sword, sam bang cho hyung, kyuk pa hyung (Red Book) Visit to Seoul, Chun Chun, kang nung, sok cho, chol won --tech during Koryo --108 torments, fan, cane, pressure points (Red Book) 1957-1958 KSN visits In Mok Jang's house/training hall (WB) 1957 In Sun Seo starts training with GM Yong Sool Choi (http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter.html) KSN visits GM Yong Sool Choi in Daegu frequently (WB) 1958 In Sun Seo receives 1st Dan in Hapkido (http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter.html) 1958 Kuk Sool Won established, the next 6 years are devoted to classification of tech (Kuk Sool, http://www.kuksoolwon.com/founder.html) {date...} KSN altercation with Chinese martial arts instructors who eventually went on to seoul to teach "Shib-pal-ki" (WB) 1960 Moon Jon Won moves to Busan to open a Yu Kwon Sul School, KSN goes along to help (History of Korea and Hapkido by Dr. He-Young Kimm) 1961 Korean Kuk Sool Association founded @ age 22 (kuk Sool Won Textbook #1, http://www.kuksoolwon.com/founder.html) 1961 In Sun Seo opens first Korea Kuk Sool Won Hapkido Dojang (http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter.html) Fall 1961 Kim Moo Hong opens Shin Moo Kwan Hapkido School, Kim Woo Tak and Hur Il Woong come along to help (History) March 1962 While Kim Moo Hong is away serving in the army KSN visits Shin Moo Kwan School and demonstrates palm tech. They were impressed and thought he had more secretes to teach. Kim Woo Tak, Lee Han Chul, Kim Moo Jin, Hur Il Wang and Lee Joo Bang leave and form Kuk sool schools in seoul, busan and deagu (History) 1962 Kim Wook Tak established Kuk Sool Kwan (History) Summer 1963 KSN goes to busan with Lee Han chul and Kim Moo Jin; "Suh In Hyuk was Won Jang, with Kim Moo Jin and Lee Han Chul as Sa Bub Nim" (History) 1963 Lee Han Chul Moves Back to Seoul and opens kuk sool won school [Suh Dae Moon Dojang] (History, http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter2.html) 1964 Kuk Sool Won headquarters established by KSN in Busan (History) 1964 Kim, Woo Tak opened Ul Ji Ryo Dojang in Seoul (http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter2.html) Kim Moo Jin moves to Yong Do Island and opens yawara school (History) 1965 In Sun Seo honorably discharged from the Korean army and appointed as a Master of Kuk Sool Won - Hapkido (http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter2.html) 1965- Master Lee, Jong Oh opens Seo Myun, Busan Dojang (http://www.kidohae.com/news-inter2.html) 1966 Lee Joo Bang established Kuk Sool Won school in seoul (History) 1966 In Sun Seo appointed Pusan's Area Master (http://www.kidohae.com/about-gmseo.html) Lee Han Chul appointed Head of Seoul Kuk sool won by KSN (History) March 1967 kim woo tak opens kuk sool kwan school in seoul (History) 1967 Hur Il Wong established Kuk Sool Kwan in Seoul (History) 1968 Lee Joo Bang leaves kuk sool won over differences over who should be Head of Seoul Kuk Sool Won (History) 1968 Lee Joo Sang establishes a Hapkido school in the US (http://www.hwarang.org/Contemporary.html) 1968-1969 Lee Joo Bang establishes Hwa Rang Do (http://www.hwarang.org/Contemporary.html, History) 1969 In Sun Seo appointed Korea Kuk Sool Won Chiefmaster (http://www.kidohae.com/about-gmseo.html) 1969.10.7. The First Korea Martial Arts Championship held at Jang Choong Gymnasium in Seoul. Grandmaster Seo for the first time in modern Korean martial arts history, perform a traditional sword form with JIN GUM. (http://www.completemartialarts.com/whoswho/halloffame/insunseo.htm, http://www.kidohae.or.kr/01/02.htm) 1970 Lee Han Chul leaves kuk sool won (History) 1972 Lee Joo Bang comes to the US (http://www.hwarang.org/Personal.html) 1973 Lee Han Chul immigrates to Paraguay. (History) 1976.6.5. The 2nd Korea Martial Arts Championship held at Gu Duk Gymnasium. (http://www.kidohae.or.kr/01/02.htm) 1976.11.25. The Government Agency of National Films of Culture and Public Awareness/Ministry of Culture produces "Ho Kuk Mu Yea"(National Defense Martial Arts) with Chiefmaster SEO, IN SUN and 30 masters and instructors featured to highlight tradition Korean martial arts. Chiefmaster SEO, IN SUN served as the martial arts consultant and advisor for the documentary which was shown abroad as an educational film. (http://www.kidohae.or.kr/01/02.htm)
Just to clarify. When you reference (History), it is the He-Young Kimm book right? The five books he recieved were most probably the Muye Dobo Tongji. This is from the KSN documentary done in 1999 by the Korean Broadcasting Service. They show the five books, with an english subtitle stating what they are. Although I find the English translation of this book to border on useless for me, Master Barry Harmon did a good job in his book convincing me that if you understand the base language you can get good information from it. Here is the link to the book available on amazon, http://www.amazon.com/Muye-Dobo-Tongji-Comprehensive-Illustrated/dp/1880336480/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234975253&sr=8-1
Yes, I wrote the entire book first then got lazy... also WB refers to World's Best: A legendary Story of Grandmaster In Hyuk Suh by Moon Young Kim, Samtoh 2004, etc. I saw many hints to this, but I could not ever verify. Now I want to go back and watch the documentary. Wasn't the Muye Dobo Tongji only four books though?
Yes it was four, but I distinctly remember them saying that he received those from his grandfather. I could be wrong. I will watch it again as well. EDIT: I just watched the pertinent part of the video. It clearly shows 5 books, but it does not describe the contents of each. It also does not directly state how he received them.
You can't blame him for being a bit confused, as (WB) undoubtedly meant (World's Best: A Legendary Story), but you could have written (History of Korea and Hapkido) once or twice before shortening to just (History), and maybe (HoKaH) could have afforded your laziness (no disrespect) and would've forced "the obvious" to be realized. But then hindsight is always 20/20. I wouldn't call it lazy as long as the information is clear. After all, "ibid." is fully embraced by academia when citing reference materials.
I added a couple of entries to my first post. Should I keep updating that one so that there is one list? True, if you think it's clear enough I'll leave it as is if not I can go back and change. I was typing fast so I'll be happy if I just avoided too many spelling mistakes...
AFAIK the edit function on your posts only works for 24 hours, so any further updates after that timeframe will require a copy/paste function to have it all listed in one tidy spot.
I was going to add KSN coming to the US, but I want to make sure I had it right first... I think I read (can't remember were now) that Ken Duncan opened the first Kuk Sool Won school in New Orleans in 1973 1974 Ken Duncan convinces KSN to move to the US (anybody have an exact date?) 1974 After visiting Ken Duncan's school in New Orleans KSN opens a school in SF. Is this correct? There are also some discrepancy in He-Young Kimm's Dates. So far the dates are ± two years or so. There is also hints to the fact that there may have been some mingling of ideas from those who left Kim Moo Hong's school. He-Young Kimm's History book clearly paints the picture that Kim Moo Hong's students left in order to learn what KSN demonstrated to them, but what happens immediately after they leave is still murky. It sounds like after they left instead of becoming students of KSN they rather formed a group and ideas were exchanged. But they didn't stay together long. The next year they start splitting up and forming schools. Hur Il Wong's history also confuses me. It says that in 1967 he established a Kuk Sool Kwan school in Seoul, but if you turn over to the chapter on him it talks about him going back to school. I'm sure this is just the start of the murkiness, but maybe by constructing a time line we can see what actually took place. Does anyone know when In Suk Suh, In Sun Seo , and In Joo Suh were born?
This is extremely unlikely for a couple reasons. 1) The titles & topics IHS says were covered in the books his grandfather gave him have nothing to do with the 5 books of the MYDBTJ. The titles are different. The subject matter is different. 2) While KSW features many of the same weapons found in the MYDBTJ, the weapon hyung are completely different. There is almost no similarity whatsoever. Even the weapon designs are different. The weapon content of KSW points to a later origin, rather than the Yi Dynasty military kung fu. If IHS received a copy of the MYDTJ, the content & syllabus of KSW would likely be completely different from what it is today.
:topic: Don't you just hate it when people state the obvious. Like quoting post #2 and illustrating an error when posts #3 & #4 already came to the same conclusion (4 books vs. 5 books). And lo & behold! the fifth item in post #1 does state the topics for the 5 books in question. I don't think anyone is oblivious to the translation of those topics, so I'll skip that part. I also doubt that GM IHS is incapable of getting his hands on a copy of the MYDBTJ, though I never heard him say that's where the weapon material in KSW is derived. The claim of 24 gung-jung mu-sul weapons does hint at the MYDBTJ, however one would have to exceed the 18 weapons usually listed for sib-pal-gi and include all chapters in all four books not dedicated to introductions or military garb (the total of which = 24). This would count several weapons twice (as used from horseback) as well as horse riding skills, a polo-like game, and sword sparring. This doesn't seem right to me but I've heard lots of conjecture about this aspect of the KSW weapon curriculum, unfortunately just nothing to really substantiate it. Of course, this "magic number" of 24 doesn't include weapons from other backgrounds (bulgyo, sado), and I doubt archery would fall under either of the other two categories (archery is curiously omitted from the MYDBTJ), so perhaps there is more to it than simple math. Knife throwing was used by a certain military branch in Koguryo, and therefore part of the gung-jung weapons (IMO) but also absent from the MYDBTJ list. I do think that ma-sang (horsemanship) abilities could multiply the number of weapons somewhat, as the skill acquired for a particular weapon sans horse doesn't necessarily equate to using that weapon while galloping along on top of one, but I guess it all boils down to one's perspective. After all, using double/twin weapons is usually considered an additional item/skill, so why not consider using a weapon from horseback as an extra item/skill? FWIW, the number of CMA weapons tops 100, so if KSW does borrow from China WRT its weapons (which I doubt), it certainly pared it down quite a bit (thank goodness).
Hmm...You're going to have to take a look at our Gum Moo Hyung. The timeline you wrote says IHS devised it, but the one Kuk Sool Won does is different enough to raise questions. Ours looks more like a "sword" form, in that is has movements clearly meant to indicate wielding blades, so their both being different and it being called Gum Moo doesn't suggest he made it... You know what? Lee Joo Bang actually lives not three miles from me. I think I am going to pay him a visit and get his story.
IHS having an actual pre-Yain shidae copy of the MYDBTJ would be an extraordinary event. We're talking an extremely rare, valuable national treasure here. Further, the issue is not the quantity of weapons & skills in gungjeong musul, but rather the difference between authenticated gungjeongmusul. The MYDBTJ is the standard for what the gungjeong curriculum was. If KSW differs from that, what are the reasons? Where did the differenced occur? There is a vast difference between what is taught in each system. Again, the primary issue is transmission. How did this occur? We have supposed dates that IHS spent in various temples. With whom did he study there? What did they teach him? As far as Geommu, has anyone cross-referenced the Hanja for this? I think you'll find the results fascinating.
Also, how do we know that the knife throwing techniques taught in KSW are transmitted from the Koguryo era?
You don't, there is no "established standard" for this skill. the only consistency in technique is that the knife must be thrown by the blade , not by the handle. However there are a few folks that use and teach a particular type of throw that looks "hyung Like" and seems to have some breath/posture/throw relationship. and you are correct the guemmoo Kanji is interesting my 2c
My bad. I didn't mean to insinuate that KSW knife throwing is derived from Koguryo. I do believe existence of the elite corps I referenced from Koguryo has been validated, however. I was simply trying to mention a few weapons in the KSW curriculum that are definitely gung jung/gung jeong weapons (as opposed to bulgyo or sado) since I think sword sparring or polo hardly "count" as separate weapons, but rather as skills with the weapons mentioned in the MYDBTJ (that being swords & horses). At present, I'm at home and my dictionaries are not. But I'll get back to you after consulting them on the hanja you mentioned (you've thoroughly piqued my interest).
I dont have my KS red book handy, does anyone want to enlighten me as to the particular hanja used for gum mu? kamsa!
