ILMUS & TANAGA-DALAM TRAINING

[dark-angle]

HI

Can someone explain what is the difference between ILMUS & TANAGA DALAM training?
Is it like empty force training where you have to stand in horse riding stance for several hours whilst doing breathing exercises? I was told that some people practising empty force have to stand in that position for 2-3 hours a day, dam that must hurt!

[Wali]

Originally Posted by dark-angle

HI

Can someone explain what is the difference between ILMUS & TANAGA DALAM training?
Is it like empty force training where you have to stand in horse riding stance for several hours whilst doing breathing exercises? I was told that some people practising empty force have to stand in that position for 2-3 hours a day, dam that must hurt!

At a very basic level, Ilmus batin training is a spiritual practice, while tenaga dalam is a method of breathing exercises that work on the physical level.

[Karn Evel]

"Ilmu" is a variation of the Arabic word 'ilm meaning knowledge or science and can refer to almost anything. There is no inherent metaphysical connotation.

Tenaga Dallam or "inner power" has basically the same meaning as Chi or Ki. Methods of cultivating this energy are similar to Chi Gung and are as varied.

Hope this helps.

Karn Evel

[Wali]

Originally Posted by Karn Evel

"Ilmu" is a variation of the Arabic word 'ilm meaning knowledge or science and can refer to almost anything. There is no inherent metaphysical connotation.

Tenaga Dallam or "inner power" has basically the same meaning as Chi or Ki. Methods of cultivating this energy are similar to Chi Gung and are as varied.

Hope this helps.

Karn Evel

within the silat community, the Ilmus batin is inherent with the inner spiritual knowledge that is practiced.

Cheers,
Wali

[dark-angle]

Thanks for that information,

Do you think that Tanaga Dalam training was taken from Indian yogic practices such as Pranayama, Kundalini yoga or perhaps Chinese qi gong, nai gong?
To my eyes Silat looks Indian in the postures, character and way of moving but I can see little Chinese influence.

[Wali]

Originally Posted by dark-angle

Thanks for that information,

Do you think that Tanaga Dalam training was taken from Indian yogic practices such as Pranayama, Kundalini yoga or perhaps Chinese qi gong, nai gong?
To my eyes Silat looks Indian in the postures, character and way of moving but I can see little Chinese influence.

There are some Indian influences, and they not only include certain breathing, but also the pressure points used.

I am not saying that ALL tanaga dalam is taken from India, as there are many, many silat styles, but what I have been exposed to has had certain Indian influences at some stage in the past.

[dark-angle]

I hear a lot of talk about how practicing these things will make you live longer and look younger but I have never seen any proof of this. Most of the people (some of which are grand masters) look and move like a person of their age would. Yet they talk about these things and they themselves are little/no different then an average person their age.

[dark-angle]

Recently I went to a qi gong demonstration. There was a very respected old qi gong grand master present from China who was demonstrating his mastery over chi. Among other things he demonstrated his ability to move people without touching them. I watched as he would ask a person to stand as he tried to manipulate their chi. Most of the people he did this to did indeed move but I was not impressed because as I examined their character I could clearly see that they wanted to believe and experience this stuff so much that they became easily manipulated and influenced by him. Next it was my turn and I was not going to let him move me. As I stood there the qi gong master waved his hands In particular directions over my body from a distance, I guess he was trying to affect the chi flowing through particular channels in my body. However he was not a happy bunny when he found that no matter how hard he tried he could not move me an Inch. He avoided me for the rest of the evening.
I here of similar things being practised in Silat for example there is a video of pendekar Sanders knocking out a person with a mudra without touching him! I wonder about the reality of the martial application of such things. What is your beliefs/experience in this?

[ICT]

DarkAngel,

Ilmu & Tanaga Dalam are both real and work for both fighting & health but you have to get rid of all the BS and learn the facts to understand it's potential.

On Fighting:

For example if you pointed a 357 magnum pistol at 100 people and asked do you think this would kill you if I shoot you, all 100 would probably say Yes. Now do the same with a BB Gun and probably all 100 would say No.

The fact is there are people killed every year with a BB Gun and people who live after being shot with a Magnum pistol every year.

Now the point to that is this: NOTHING IS 100%!

Ilmu & Tanaga Dalam works in the same fashion. Some will surely die from it and others won't be affected at all and everything else in between. I can tell you it is worth studying because there is more to it than just moving someone without touching them or harming them from a distance.

Here are some of the other attributes: Make you more powerful, faster, quicker response, control emotions & strike harder are some.

On Health

I think this is the most important aspect because if your health is bad nothing else matters. What happened to Mike Tyson when he didn't train and eat right, he got beat by a nobody who wasn't close to championship material!

Just because you do Tanaga Dalam does not mean you eat crappy. No, just the opposite, eat proper, don't smoke, don't take drugs and do energy work for maximum health. These keys are missed by a lot of people even Asians so while you think this person of age has had no benefit to Tanaga Dalam training it could be just the opposite and they could still be alive today only because of it!

True personal experience:

I caught pneumonia and according to my Traditional Chinese Medicine Doctor had walking pneumonia for nearly a year! (this condition kills someone almost everyday in America) He told me that had I not been doing my Chi Kung/Tanaga Dalam that I would definitely have been in the hospital months ago or worse!

He said that my eternal energy was over compensating for the illness and keeping me going until other factors like weather, terrain, allergies etc. started to effect me and then the energy was not strong enough to battle all of it at the same time and it caused me to feel sick enough to go to the Doctor.

I had no idea that what I had was pneumonia and I just blamed it on the weather, not keeping to my strict diet, age and stress from work. For at least 6 months I was off my game and just couldn't figure out what was going on until my visit to the DR.

So I highly recommend you do some kind of energy work for health every day!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[tellner]

Originally Posted by ICT

DarkAngel,

Ilmu & Tanaga Dalam are both real and work for both fighting & health but you have to get rid of all the BS and learn the facts to understand it's potential.

I'm reminded of a story about the Boddhidharma. A monk came up to him and said "Master, after twenty years of discipline and austerity I have prefected the art of walking on water!"

Da Mo burst into tears and said "You poor boy! All that time and effort you wasted. Don't you know that Old Wang has a ferry just a mile from here, and he only charges two copper coins!"

There may be a lot to the esoteric stuff. But I know that there are still years of work left on the basics before any of it would be worth the effort.

I caught pneumonia and according to my Traditional Chinese Medicine Doctor had walking pneumonia for nearly a year! (this condition kills someone almost everyday in America) He told me that had I not been doing my Chi Kung/Tanaga Dalam that I would definitely have been in the hospital months ago or worse!

Been there. Done that. Spent the whole time coughing and hoping pieces of lung wouldn't get horked up. It's a lousy way to live.

[dark-angle]

Fighting
I do not know of anyone who could realistically use this stuff in a real fight situation, including Pendekar Sanders and all the Qi gong masters I ever meet in my whole life.
You can’t ask an attacker who wants to kill you to relax, close your eyes and let me gently move you. Quite simply you will get killed trying this stuff in a real fight. For this to be effective you would need to generate enough power to literally knock that person to the ground within a split second, not after 5 or even 10 minuets, what use is that?

Health
I agree health is far more important then any other benefit you may get from this training and it is the only realistic benefit you can hope to gain from this training.
Good diet, regular exercise and some internal practice will increase your health but not to the degree that some Qi gong masters claim. You will not look 20 years younger and live to be 130 years old in perfect health! I would love to put a mirror in front of those Qi gong masters face who claim such things and simply say, well sir has it worked for you, do you look 20 years younger or can you move like a person half your age, No I did not think so!

[tellner]

A lot of it depends on what you mean by qi or tenaga dalem. Some of these people have incredible body mechanics which let them do whatever they do with a lot more power. That's not to be sneezed at, especially as you get older. There are breathing techniques (for a more scientific view see Pavel Tsatsouline's "The Naked Warrior") that can increase power. They are all part of internal training.

[ICT]

Originally Posted by dark-angle

Fighting
I do not know of anyone who could realistically use this stuff in a real fight situation, including Pendekar Sanders and all the Qi gong masters I ever meet in my whole life.

Like I said it can do the following that can be of use in a fight: increase your power for striking, your speed, your reactionary timing, your ability to take more punishment and etc.. So focus on those!

Health
I agree health is far more important then any other benefit you may get from this training and it is the only realistic benefit you can hope to gain from this training. Good diet, regular exercise and some internal practice will increase your health but not to the degree that some Qi gong masters claim. You will not look 20 years younger and live to be 130 years old in perfect health! I would love to put a mirror in front of those Qi gong masters face who claim such things and simply say, well sir has it worked for you, do you look 20 years younger or can you move like a person half your age, No I did not think so!

Well that depends on who your talking about? Master Savelli is 68 or 69 (?) and looks 50 ish and moves better than most 40 year olds, Master Ueshiba was 80 something and still taught class and moved against 20 year olds.

Remember you don't know what is going on inside with these people and the internal energy could be keeping them alive, keeping them mobile, keeping their mind sharp or etc. so don't put a Chi Kung/Tenaga Dalam Master down for not living to be 100 or looking 20 years younger.

Understand the reasonable attributes that are attainable and practise to learn those and forget about the rest!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[Garuda]

There are several "pencak silat" styles that focus on Tenaga Dalam and using breathing techniques for better personal health. To name a few:

- Merpati Putih (http://mpakzo.tripod.com/home.htm and http://mp-usa.org/)
- Satria Nusantara (they do not regard themselves as pencak silat, but see it more as stimulation of health, see: http://www.satria-nusantara-europe.org/english.htm)

And their are much more styles focusing on Tenaga Dalam.


Garuda...

[Silatyogi]

there are many similarities in Silat to Hindu arts and also Tibetan Tantra. The postures, breathing, concentrian methods, the mental states or emotions etc.

I showed once Bon Po Tibetan Lama a Serak Djuru and his eyes got big and said that those are secret Mudras (hand postures) in Tibet! History shows us that the, hindus and Buddhist once occupied Indonesia. Most of the names in silat have sanskrit Hindu roots.