This subject has come up a couple of times now. The general consensus seems to be that it doesn't really take place but we have had certain individuals mention that it is possible to train in the ryu-ha as individual entities and that the method of transmission is comparable to koryu. Personally I hate to generalise about the subject of transmission in koryu but I thought this would be a good time to bring the subject up. So how is the training structured? Is there some form of official process one has to undertake to commence training?
Dean, You know, you really should have entitled this: Locked Thread #099 Just to get it over with. - Mark Spada
Well, this is going to be one of those subjects that gets answers categorized as "Yes and no." First of all, before the heavyweights get here, I personally would like to begin by insisting that we all agree upon the definitions of the terminology being discussed. Specifically, koryu and transmission. Because one of the first things that is going to happen is, when the Jedi get here, they are valiantly going to take a stand and insist that "The arts of the Bujinkan are SO koryu!!!!" And of course when the Sith show up, they're going to whip out their red bladed lightsabers and proclaim that The arts of the Bujinkan are so NOT koryu!!!!" Without appearing to take sides, ( paint me a "Dark Jedi", then ) my own experience would indicate that you can indeed learn the individual ryu-ha of the Bujinkan....but not necessarily enter any one particular ryu-ha in the same manner in which an individual might enter Araki ryu or Yagyu Shinkage ryu, for example. If it is possible to enter into a particular ryu-ha in order to receive transmission of it's teachings, I'm sure that a certain anonymous someone who currently lives in Japan and trains under a certain anonymous teacher will tell us all about it. - Mark Spada
Who ever said the transmission was comparable to koryu? In fact what does that even mean? When I asked for someone else to clarify on another thread that want be mentioned here, I was answered with silence. Which koryu? What amount of transmission? It's not really secret knowledge that some people have menkyo kaiden in several of the arts. Some even came to America(and other places) and taught techniques from these arts, as early as the 80s. So why would it come as some suprise that it is possible to learn these arts? I mean they are what make up the Bujinkan, so why would you assume they weren't available to be learned? HOWEVER, it's not that easy. But then again, life usually isn't.
Did Mr Hatsumi’s licensed students receive transmission in shoden, chuden etc. levels individually in sequence or did they receive menkyo kaiden directly. How did it go when Mr Hatsumi trained with Mt Takamatsu - shoden, chuden etc. in increments or direct to menkyo kaiden/next generation soke?
One more thing I will say on this matter. What difference does it make if you can study the ryuha material in Japan? For the majority of the people in the Bujinkan, they will never learn the different ryuha correctly nor thoroughly, achieving menkyo kaiden in them so what does it matter if there is a chance to learn them or not? As has been repeated ad infinitum, in the early days Hatsumi sensei's students didn't even know the names of a lot of what they were learning. Their "training" was whatever Hatsumi sensei wanted to work on in order for him to better himself and if you missed class, you might not see what you missed for years. It wasn't spoonfed and it was hardcore. However, the question isn't how did they learn it, it is why did they learn it when others who came after didn't? Doron got it. SKH didn't. So are you a Doron, or a SKH? Do you have the time and dedication to actually learn the stuff and put in the years to internalize it so you can actually demonstrate and use it or are you out to make yourself a "successful" martial arts dojocho with neat patches and lots of students who "Hai," and "Oss" and run around at your bid and call? Naturally, these aren't mutually exclusive categories, but I think most will get the idea. The Bujinkan is exactly what the foreigners made it. If anyone thinks that the Japanese will just teach their secret arts that have been transmitted caringly and sparingly generation by generation to just any guy who shows up with some omiyage for a few weeks to train, and is more concerned with their ego and the bottom line than the art, then I have a portfolio of beautiful suspension bridges(don't ask me, they're big in Japan) that I would consider selling you. Please feel free to PM queries(that's a joke by the way). This is not meant to disparage those who run schools or who come every now and then to DKS or to "train" with the boss. Let's be realistic though. Look at the depth and breadth of Kukishin ryu or Takagi Yoshin ryu for example. Not really geared towards online classes or get it all in 10 quick lessons.
Well you've given the impression on a number of occasions that training in them is possible, you have also alluded to the idea that it is similar to training in koryu hence the various questions that have come your way. I thought this thread might provide some clarification on the subject. What makes you think the driving force in someone wishing to study a ryu-ha is the achievement of Menkyo Kaiden? Personally I'd be wary of someone whose main reason for study is to be able to say they've achieved Menkyo Kaiden.
My post accidentally got posted before I was finished. Yes, it is possible to learn the ryuha(clearly, otherwise there wouldn't be people after Hatsumi Sensei with Menkyo Kaiden in them). This isn't an impression but a fact. I am not sure how I alluded that the training was similar to training in "koryu," whatever that means. Without clarifying that point, along with what you mean by "transmission," this discussion might not be very fruitful. I am not trying to be rude, but I still don't understand how this affects 99% of the people training out there? The goal isn't to be able to brag that you have menkyo kaiden. Unlike pretty patches, and having lots of dan, which many brag about having by the way, menkyo kaiden doesn't mean anything to most people out there (outside Japan anyway). Personally though, if I was going to study a traditional Japanese art, I would want to learn from someone with kaiden or some equivalent grade in said art, whether it be Fujima Ryu or Urasenke. Everyone studies for their own reasons, that is personal, as is how you define mastery or whatever you consider important in learning an art. However, in Japan, there are parameters that are used to judge those who practice traditional arts, and menkyo kaiden is one of these.
It makes a difference to those who wish to delve as deeply and as thoroughly as they possible can because they are not interested in attaining menkyo kaiden; they are simply interested in exploring the treasure that they have been presented with. Your repeated stentorian fist banging from mount Noda is ultimately just preaching to the converted. Your assertion that the majority are missing out is news to no one. - Mark Spada
Okay, I'll have a go at explaining the way Koryu is transmitted (was going to in the other thread, but it was pretty well past that when I got back to it, so I left it), and do a basic comparrison with the Bujinkan methodologies. First, a caveat: What I am going to put here is a generalisation, both in terms of Koryu and the Bujinkan methods, not universal, there are going to be great exceptions in both cases here. Koryu has one main concern, which is the correct transmission of the lessons and teachings of the Ryu itself. It is not concerned with being "up to date", or "applicable" as a modern self defence method, it is about making sure the teachings of the Ryu are maintained and continued. This means keeping things unaltered for the most part, little to no henka, little to no adaptation, and so on. Koryu simply wants to maintain itself, purely. The Bujinkan, on the other hand, is about adaptation. The technical curriculum is taken and drawn from a range of old traditions (Koryu themselves), however that is not the method of transmission. Here the basic concept is the ability to apply the principles of Budo Taijutsu, the art created by Hatsumi Sensei from the traditions he inherited. The kata are used to explore the principles of Budo Taijutsu. This allows the art to adapt to more modern interpretations, including use of modern weaponry, and a range of other aspects that can be approached (multiple attackers to explore a range of skill-sets, for instance). So, in essence, the arts that make up the Bujinkan are Koryu, at least a number of them (with differing opinions of the others), however they are not transmitted with a sense of wanting to preserve the individual Ryu-ha themselves, which makes Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu non-Koryu. The story I have come across most commonly is that, in the early 80's, Hatsumi Sensei was very ill, and was under the impression that he was going to die. He asked his senior students to copy his scrolls at that point, so that the arts would be preserved, and that constituted the awarding of Menkyo Kaiden, so I feel that they basically went straight to Menkyo Kaiden. I also have the feeling that Hatsumi Sensei was graded in a similar method, as that is the impression I get from his writings, although that could very easily be just that he has only mentioned the gaining of the Soke-ship, rather than the stages he went through first. In terms of other systems, he was awarded Menkyo Kaiden in Asayama Ichiden Ryu from Ueno Takashi in three years, that probably went section by section. One of the biggest distinctions between a Koryu and the Bujinkan is probably best summed up in something said a little while back (sorry, I don't remember who posted it.... might hve been Dean, maybe James, possibly Scott...), which was that you don't "learn" a Koryu, you join it. With the Bujinkan, you don't join Takagi Yoshin Ryu, you join the Bujinkan. You don't join Koto Ryu, you join the Bujinkan. So what you learn is the Bujinkan, specifically Budo Taijutsu, and that is a Gendai system. It's roots and syllabus come from Koryu systems, but it isn't one itself. It could be, but that would be up to Hatsumi to change the way he is doing things, and I personally think that he is happy with Budo Taijutsu, as it is his creation based on his training, experience, understanding, and insight gained from many decades in the arts.
Insert Sato Kinbei instead of Hatsumi Massaki & Daiwa-ryu jujutsu/Daiwado instead of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and you have almost the exact same phenomena, but with different teaching methods and a different flavour. It's almost JKD in nature, snatching bits from here and there and formulating new patterns of movement and engagement. It may have a strong Japanese cultural flavour, but the similarities are there.
Well, although it was stated with tongue in cheek, alluding to myself as "Dark Jedi"* was actually quite accurate, in my humble estimation. In an effort to clarify what I believe to be Bujinkan training, within the context of this thread, allow me to share these words from someone who once again said it better than I could: "With enough practice, once can master the movements of more than one system, but often, at heart, one is merely doing generic koryu, becoming a master of movement without appreciating, much less comprehending, the heart of each system." - Ellis Amdur To be fair to both myself and to other Bujinkan practitioners, I think it's important to stress that, as has been pointed out, the individual ryu-ha of the Bujinkan are not transmitted in the same manner as something like Araki ryu, and in my humble opinion that should be a warning to those gaijin who insist that they have learned an individual ryu-ha and/or have attained menkyo kaiden in any of them. - Mark Spada
I know you are trying but.... It's Mt. Tsukuba. So, next time you feel the urge to actually add to the conversation, I know you are going to do your walk around the block thing and just post something that makes us believe you didn't get your morning coffee. For those who wish to delve deep, they probably already know what is available and are already doing what is necessary to learn it but thanks for your charming insight as always... Let's try to keep it on topic and civil.
To be fair, you'll have the techniques of the ryuha and the history of the ryuha, but not the heart or mindset of the ryuha. This is due to the fact that several koryu jujutsu (call it taijutsu, kogusoku, kumiuchi, yawara, they're all ryuha specific terms for unarmed combat skills in their respective ryuha.) ryuha do have conflicting combative theories and mindsets. Kata in koryu provide a great insight into the heart and mindset of a ryuha when trained dilligently and often. They also provide vital information in the way of body movement, physical principles and other attributes. Doing several henka of those kata without having beginners not truly understand the fundamentals of what they are studying can be a hinderance to learning; Sometimes the original kata is harder learn and perform physically, whereas the henka may prove to be easier to do. The henka is a way of expressing higher understanding of the basic principles in the original kata. However without the understanding of the mindset or "flavour" of the ryuha employed, it's not really a henka of that kata or the ryuha. It merely mimics the style of movement.
Hi CP, As always, you offer some good food for thought. However, on the menkyo kaiden issue, who Japanese have you ever asked about this issue? I don't need names actually, you can just reply if you have talked to any of the concerned parties about how and under what circumstances they received their menkyo kaiden. Same with how Hatsumi sensei was taught by Takamatsu sensei. I don't think it wise or fair to theorize about these issues, and a bit irresponsible to post about them on public forums unless you are speaking from some firsthand knowledge. If you are, then feel free to ignore the previous sentence. As far as the people who have menkyo kaiden continued to train and learn from Hatsumi sensei after receiving it, it is really a moot point as to when they received it(and under what circumstances) and something others can argue about(unless you are trying to infer that they never got the transmission of the schools, in which case I would have to disagree). That there are menkyo kaiden holders in these arts who can teach you said schools if willing, should be enough for most people. That this is not the thrust of the Bujinkan as an organization nor the "training" most people covet and receive when they visit Japan, I will not disagree. So yes, you can be potentially taught the schools, and I know of one foreigner at least, who achieved a high level of ability in the schools(don't know which foreigners MS heard claiming they had menkyo kaiden though). This is what I meant when I wrote being taught as koryu. If someone has received transmission, then they can teach the schools how they please, and nothing anyone says(except for that person's teacher assuming they have not broken off from them) really has any bearing on it. I know your discussion of the differences is a general overview, yet it does not adequately cover the time period before the art was called Budo Taijutsu. This time period starting before the boom(where the kata from the ryu were relatively unknown outside of Japan, yet were clearly being transmitted), through the boom years and up until the name was changed is equally germane to the subject at hand. Discussing the Bujinkan only in its incarnation as BBT is kind of myopic though a good start.
It's useful to generalize about how things are transmitted in koryu, however it is a bit of a leap of faith and a huge assumption to say that all koryu practicioners are learning their perspective schools to some kind of deep and meaningful level. I can think of several examples where I know that this is definitely not the case. To what extent they are indoctrinated into their school would depend(amongst other things) on the size of their school, their own dojo, their teacher's ability, as well as their relationship with their teacher. Though I would posit that the variance is much less than that found in the Bujinkan, part of that is due to the size of the organization. Amongst Hatsumi sensei's students(as opposed to his or their student's student's student's, etc.), you will find much more conformity to and knowledge of the schools that make up the Bujinkan and one might find that they can indeed show you the difference in movement between several of the schools. Having said that, I am sure that certain schools probably resonated with certain shihan more or less and this would surely show.
Perhaps much as in Judo you have and may learn some of the technical syllabus of Kito ryu jujutsu via Judo's Koshiki no kata. . .but you won't be a member of Kito ryu or learning its heart or mindset. . .
