Aiki-Jutsu?

Hey,

I wonder why this Forum has no entry about Aiki-Jutsu. I know it is not a common martial Art, but why not mention it? I like Aiki-Jutsu a lot. The training and the techniques are more straight forward as Aikido.

How do you think about?

I did not know where to put this topic, so forgive me if I misplaced it.

Regards,
gottfried

 

Mmmmm..... I think you may have answered your own question. There is a good chance that the reason there is no category for "AIKI-JUTSU" is that the practice represents such a high level of personal development that it would be almost impossible to find sufficient numbers to make the category worthwhile. I'm wondering if, perhaps, you are confusing AIKI-JUTSU with either of its two lower levels of practice.

Most of us are familiar with JU-JUTSU and, perhaps, even its two precedent practices, YAWARA and SUMO, perhaps even the historical YOROI-UCHI techniques. These arts are based on a "KI-AI" approach to combat in which a person attacks at the time--or before--- the aggressor makes his move (Jap: "Sen-no-sen").

The next level of sophistication is AIKI-JUJUTSU. Founded in the 18th Century teachings of a Confucian scholar, these techniques are founded in the "AIKI" approach to combat. The AIKI strategy requires that one respond to the aggressor's attack after the initial move is made and a "hole" or "weakness" (Jap: "Suki") in the attack is identified and exploited. The Japanese phrase for this is "SEN-SEN-no-SEN".

The highest level of sophistication is AIKI-JUTSU. Similarly founded in Confucian values, these techniques are intended to stop a person, dissuading them from their attack even as they formulate their plan. Anecdotally we have all heard stories of encounters wherein the aggressor has made much of his intentions only to be dissuaded by the demeanor of his intended target. LEO-s speak of "command presence" when answering a call. Most of us have experienced it when being presented with an individual whose every pore exudes the spirit of "you really don't want to do what you're thinking...". This ability to unsettle and dissuade without reliance on physical effort is considered the highest level of practice.

There are a number of fine writings concerning the hierarchy I have laid-out (see: Draeger; Omiya), but I would suggest that these sorts of discriminations are lost on most folks who are usually interested only in the most basic pay-offs such as dominating their partner. Does any of this help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

There are so many ma that its impossible to include a forum for each one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts

Thats why there's a forum for some of the more common ones and then there is another little forum for other ma's.

 

Ahem:

http://www.daito-ryu.org/

 

Would you mind giving specific examples of the above please, by that I mean specific ryu-ha and also which texts are you refering to?


Cheers

 

hmmm for the DRAJJ - here's a bit that might interest some of you:

Which is pretty much in line with what the Honbu Dojo holds to be the lineage of DRAJJ.

 

Why not hear it from the current head of Daito-ryu aikijujutsu himself?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BnzAOwABAA"]Daito-ryu - What is Aiki?大東流ー合氣とは？[/ame]

 

Actually, Dean, yes....I would mind. I gave two authors to start you on your way in my post. Each author also has a bibliography in the back of their respective books. Now...I didn't really have to do that, but as a scholar I do hope to share information with others. Where I draw the line is in spoon-feeding people who are not sufficiently motivated to do anything more than type a post ....asking for SOMEONE ELSE to do their grunt-work for them.

Note to KOGUSOKU:

Thanks for the clip. Just remember that you are getting ONE view of what things are about. If you read DAITO-RYU AIKIJUJUTSU (see: Pranin) you will get a real flavor of just how much things vary within that community. Add to that parallel traditions in Korea and China and you will find that not everyone is on exactly the same page, though most people tend to read from at least the same book (as it were).

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Wow that's a rather shocking and abrasive attitude you have there, pretty unnecessary really I only asked a simple question.

Being the "scholar" that you are I would have though you would be used to providing actual references to back up your statements.

Really what's the issue with providing the titles of the text you are referring to or any ryu-ha you have had exposure to which would corroborate your statement?

As for being sufficiently motivated lmao get off your high horse you have no idea about my level of motivation or to what degree I study.

I find it rather humorous that you've blown up at a simple request for references and at the same time are claiming to be a "scholar" lol


Oh btw do you perhaps mean yoroi kumiuchi rather than yoroi uchi, which book did that come from?

 

And...for my part, find it suspicious that you have not referenced the two authors I have given----perhaps you are not familiar with them?--nor have you referenced the work I mentioned by Stanley Pranin. I also note that you did not mention Kondo Sensei's writings, have not cited the Confucian scholar I mentioned (see: TAKEDA Takumi no Kami Soemon 1758 - 1853), nor have you added any citations of your own. And so, Dean, you have very neatly done for me what paragraphs of rant might not have accomplished. You are most easily identified as a textbook "keyboard jockey", giving nothing and criticizing everything.

There is a piece behind this that I originally witheld but perhaps its worthwhile mentioning, even at this late date.

This is not my first rodeo with folks such as yourself. Even as I wrote my post I already was very sure that you would a.) not investigate the information I provided, b.) would find fault with my not spoon-feeding you what you asked, c.) cast personal aspersions on me where possible.

Now....the challenge is this....either you have something, original to YOU, to contribute or you don't. But I have no intention of letting you use me or my information as a foil by which you can pretend to participate by simply discounting someone else.

Regards.

 

Oh dear oh dear.

So let me get this straight.

You make a statement about the nature of Jujutsu (generally speaking), you say that this hierarchy is mentioned in for example Draeger’s work.

Yet it is down to me to back up your claims?

Is that correct?

Is that your usual "scholarly" procedure?

Pleas though do carry on with the character assassinations I’m sure that’s what all good scholars do when asked to back up their work.

You’ve already made one error with regards to terminology so how do those who aren’t familiar with this subject know if you’re correct on everything else?

You throw other researchers names around but don’t give any real evidence that what you’ve written is nothing more than your understanding of the subject.

If you’d said it was just your understanding fine but you didn’t.

LMAO.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone get so wound up at a simple request to back up their info.

*chuckle*

Please where have I cast any personal aspersions?

All I have done is ask you which text you are referring to, which you have been unable to show, and if you have had any exposure to jujutsu ryu-ha whose teachings could also corroborate your claims.

Are you really that arrogant that you think people should just take your word for it?

I find the keyboard jockey comment funny considering it’s coming from someone who won’t actually provide any back up for their claims and doesn’t seem to have actually studied to any depth the specific subject (jujutsu) which I was asking about.

 

Dear Slip:

While I appreciate your effort, it may be well to remember that the tradition of the AIZU clan formerly called DAITO-RYU died in about the 15th or 16th century.

The tradition referenced in this discussion was not born until just before 1920. Modern DAITO-RYU is connected to "ancient traditons" only in the minds of historical revisionists. The art itself was a collection of techniques generally based on sword and spear movements and named DAITO-RYU by the late TAKEDA Sokaku just after the First World War. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

No...Dean... I think you should get off your lazy butt and do some reading instead of automatically expecting someone will transcribe page after page of resource material for you. Most people---scholars, students, teachers---that I know would have simply taken the information I provided and begun to examine the information and, perhaps, brought back observations of their own. Thats how adults do it. Unfortunately, the kids among us are petulant at best and are ever in need of being coddled along.

BTW: You still haven't referenced the information I gave you.
You have my citations in my first post.
Why are you avoiding investigating the material upon which my conclusions are based?

 

Adults use a bibliography.

You haven't provided one.

I could very easily. You know this from before.

- Yokose, Tomoyuki, 2000. Nihon No Kobudō. Shadanhōjin Nippon Budōkan - Baseball Magazine sha.

 

So..... am I to understand that if I provide a bib to Dean I will then somehow, magically, mystically be "accepted" by him? OK....... I'll bite. I'm going to give you a bib, K. I want to see what happens. But....just to be clear. what exactly do I get in return?

Draeger Donn F.
Classical Bujutsu (Vol 1)
Classical Budo (Vol 2)
Modern Bujutsu and Budo (Vol 3)

Shiro Omiya
The Hidden Roots of Aikido

Stanley Pranin
Daito-Ryu Aiki-jujutsu

Katsuyuki Kondo
Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu

Now....I've only used the English language sources. What other hoops am I expected to jump through before I am deemed worthy to be a part of this rarified discussion?

BTW: Just for my own personal edification..... How is it that other folks make declarative statements all the time --- post after post, thread after thread--- and noone asks THEM to provide citations for their comments?

BTW #2: As I mentioned earlier--- and will now enhance--- the "lineage" that you provided is only a recent construction. In fact I was part of a number of early discussions on the very topic of its formulation over on E-BUDO many years back.

 

It will give him something to look up and research, won't it?

You could have added this while writing your eariler posts and it would have probably saved a lot of frustration on both sides.

 

You are oh so desperate to try to make this about me, to make it my responsibility.

Well sorry but it really doesn’t work like that, I don’t have to back up your claims, if you were the scholar you claim this would be so hard for you to understand.

You seem really desperate to take the attention away from what you’ve said and put it all back on me.

Yet again we see you trying to attack me merely because I’ve asked you a very very simple question.

You will note that I haven’t asked you to transcribe anything, nice strawman by the way, all I’ve done is ask for the titles of the text you are referring to and if you’ve had any experience of a ryu-ha whose teachings have followed the pattern you have outlined.

At most that’s a paragraph if that, certainly not pages.

It strange how you talk about being an adult and a scholar yet it is you you have launched into personal attacks against me, not the other way around.

You have blown this completely out of proportion and reacted as if I’ve asked you what your wife’s favourite sexual position is, rather than asking a simple question which if answered would back up your post.

Also you might want to stop making these assumptions about people’s knowledge, experience and motivation especially when you’ve no idea who you are talking to.

Guess what just because someone asks a simple question that doesn’t mean they are clueless, you might want to keep it in mind as it may stop you looking foolish when you go off on these little tirades.

I asked a simple polite question and you responded like a jerk but please continue to call me names, belittle me and try to make it all about me.

Your actions and attitude are your own responsibility nobody else’s and you’ve made yourself look rather silly.

 

No to be accepted by me you just have to be a reasonable and polite individual, something you've failed at so far.

To be honest I think your responses have shown more about your personal insecurities than my one question could ever show about my level of motivation.

Edit: My original question was purely due to interest, it wasn't some plot to make you look like a pillock. I asked it because you seem "off base" on a few things and was wondering just which text you had got your info from, have you thought that I could have been possibly trying to assist?

Have you for one moment considered that I may have had other information which might clarify certain things? Nope you just went off on one because someone had dared to aim a question your way.

Well good luck with your "research" I'll carry on being a keyboard jockey shall I?

 

And while we are clarifying things, might it ever have occurred to YOU how many keyboard jockies I have crossed pathes with over the last decade or so? The results are ALWAYS....ALWAYS the same.

1.) I make a declarative statement.

2.) Mr. K J takes umbarage and says the equivalent of "prove it".

3.) I provide citations to support my position.

4.) Mr. K J states that he does not "recognize" those citations.

5.) I provide other citations.

6.) Mr. K J states that the new citations are also "unworthy".

7.) I then ask what would be a credible citation and am advised that only one who has studied the art can speak with veracity.

8.) I report that I have practiced Hapkido for two decades.

9.) Mr. K J advises me that it is not the same. Only one who has practiced a Japanese art can know true AIKI theory.

10. And I daresay that if I studied Japanese traditons Mr. K J qwould be bound to report that only a person who had studied from HIS teacher could know etc etc. And then again only one who has attained High Dan rank could know etc etc.

See....as I said.... I have been to this movie at least once or twice and it always works out the same way. Thats why you got the reception that you did. Been there ....done that....bought the t-shirt...

 

Soooo other people are the excuse you use for your bad behaviour?

Riiight ok glad that's been cleared up.

You seem to be projecting your insecurities and making them my problem well they aren’t they are yours.

I leave you to it then, I'd much rather hang out with people who take a degree of responsibility for their actions and attitude.

After all that's what "adults" do.

Tat ta