I am not understanding where TKD is Derived from or at less not sure if I'm right. TKD came from Hwa Rang Do and that is a Mix of Taekyon and Soo Bakh Do, Right? Okay if that is right then I understand that part. What are the Kwans? and the other styles of TKD, Like Kukkiwon, where are they from? I'm just doing some research on this because it is an awesome art and I want to learn more about it. And here is my Resource. http://www.barrel.net/history.php
TKD came from Shotokan Karate-mostly and has evolved from there. Soo Bakh Do, Tang Soo Do etc may well of evolved slightly earlier during the Japanese occupation of Korea from 1900-1945, hence the term 'Korean Karate'. Forget the nonsense about the Hwarang or 2000 year old Buddhist Wrestling Pigeons. General Choi he say-1953 1953 1953... Whether there is any Tae Kyon (Tae Gyun) in it (TKD) is open to 'debate'. Contrary to popular statement, Tae Kyon is not Just a kicking art, it contains alot of locks, projections, grips, gouges, hand strikes and throws (mostly wrist and hip style) etc. And what about HanPul? Nobody ever mentions that Korean art, hardly ever, probably because it looks way too Northern Chinese for comfort (?). Checkout (Google) Baktur Books in Korea for a beautiful 'Coffee Table' book on Tae Gyun (Tae Kyon). It really is a work of art.
I've heard a lot of muttering around black belt dinner tables but never anything substantial. Got any good resources to poke around through for HanPul On that "Controversial" National Geographic prog, there was some pretty decent display of "villages" practising Tae Kyon, some of it looked pretty good. It was quite interesting to see a lot of the hip style being used. If I remember correctly the goal was to get the opponent to ground, but maybe I dreamt that .
Hey, Roga! I've got lots of people mad at me anyway, so I'll go ahead and answer this one. You will probably get several different responses. (Anyone feel I'm off base, please feel free to chime in.) The history of Tae Kwon Do is very much debated, and I'm sure many people can respond with more/better information. There are basically two TKD "histories" floating around. One is that Tae Kwon Do is an ancient art dating back to about 50 BC, and it includes the ancient samurang of Koguryo, the Hwarangdo of Silla, (two different kingdoms that later unified to become Koryo (Korea)), and various arts that emerged through the centuries, like Soobak and Taekyon. The "other" history is that TKD is a very new art that started in about 1949 by a General in the Korean army named Gen. Choi, who later became the head of the ITF when the WTF was formed. The truth is probably somewhere in between. Korea has a long history of independence and culture that includes the proud samurang and noble hwarang, but during the Yi (also called Choson) dynasty, the martial arts fell into disfavor. Martial artists and soldiers were looked down upon, and the culture elevated the status of philosophers and politicians. As usually happens in such a case, Korea was attacked and conquered by a nation that DID value soldiers/warriors and military pursuits. Around 1600, Japan attacked Korea, and from then on, Japan continued to whittle away Korean sovereignty. In the 1800's, Korea became a vassal state, but in the beginning of the 1900's, Korea was annexed and a brutal, bitter occupation began. The Imperial Japanese, from this time through the end of WWII, did everything they could to erase Korean culture--they forbade the use of the Korean language, forbade the practice of any Korean martial art, drafted Koreans into their military, and tried to turn Koreans into loyal Japanese. During this time, some individuals continued practicing and teaching the Korean martial arts in secret. After WWII, there was a huge surge of Korean nationalism. With great pride, the Korean people tried to reestablish their own independent culture in every way. Many of those who had studied Korean martial arts secretly began to practice openly. Because many of them had trained in Japan for the army, many of these individuals knew Japanese Shotokan Karate, and blended Karate and some Korean elements to form their own styles. They brought back the use of the Korean language. Why did I say all this? Because the new forms mixed with the old emerged after WWII as the Kwans. Each master starting his own style, started a Kwan. General Choi (who had studied Karate as an officer in the Japanese army) worked with the Government of Korea to get the Kwans to agree to a merger, under the new name of Tae Kwon Do. How much is "original Korean martial art" and how much is borrowed/adapted from Shotokan Karate, will prbably never be known. You will probably never get the complete "true" history. You will find websites that say TKD is just Karate by a different name, and TKD started in 1949. These websites reflect the Japanese nationalism of their authors, and are largely untrue. You will also find websites that say TKD goes back hundreds of years, and the TKD you practice today is the same as what the Hwarang practiced centuries ago. These websites reflect the Korean nationalism of their authors, and are largely untrue. For a mix of the two, you might try this history, although I don't necessarily agree with everything in it, either: http://sataekwondo.8m.com/history.htm As far as the Kukkiwon, that is just a building in Korea erected as an international training facility for all TKD artists. The building also houses the headquarters for the WTF. Hope I didn't bore you, but I tried to give the full picture, history-wise.
Hey no recent history about the current mis-mangment and corruption rife in the ITF and WTF? I'll be interested as to how the recent events will be remembered historically. I think I've laready heard 4 different versions of the ITF split. I wonder if i'll appear on forums 50 years from now saying I was there when it all went down blah blah blah?
SoKKlab- What is the book called? Capt Ann- ummm bore try confused that is okay I got what I needed or at least know what I didn't know but knew.
There are many Korean Arts. Hwa Rang Do ,Kuk Sool, Yul Won, Hap Ki Do, Tang Soo Do, Soo Bahk Do, and Tae Kwon Do, to name a few. Tae Kwon Do's history? It's immediate history, didn't start until about 5 years after the emergance of the 5 major Kwans. 4 school formed the TKD Federation from them, save Moo Duk Kwan, which srpung Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do. From what I know and have seen, Tae Kwon Do seems to have less and far less complicated forms than teh Moo Duk Kwon Schools. Though I am not sure, if someone knows how many, plz let me know. Umm.. I like to think that there are some things that have been passed down directly from korean arts. I have to wonder.. many people often say, all these MA come from Japan and Okinawa... but did they take it from Korea in the first place? Korea has a very old and very rich histroy with philosphy, religion, and martial activity and a very unique culture of each (to start they were matriarchal). Who knows. I like to think a little part of ancient Korea is in there. Philosphically and physcially. PLus, I don't know empty hand techniques that resemble the joint lock in korean arts.... but then again I don't think TKD has Joint Locks. And I would say, yes, Tae Kyon is a part of TKD though. I mean TKD has some diff kicks than Okinawan and Japanese arts and they are used aolt more.
To Sokkolab's point if you were to see someone practicing Tae Kyon next to someone practicing TKD there would be only the slightest of visual connections. Tae Kyon acutally looks much closer to Chinese Forms of Martial Arts rather than modern TKD. This is because the beginning Korean MA came from China (becuase China sent military aid to help defend Korea from Mongrels). Note also that the original Korean Martial Arts were almost exclusively weapons based (contrary to popular opinion weapons were used to get people off of horses, not jumping kicks). What eventually happened is that as previous posters suggested the widespread practice of the martial arts in Korea became social unacceptable (this is all prior to the Japanese invasion). While some practice went underground, much of it died out completely. However what did survive the era were training manuals. Proof of the lack of continutity between the major modern Korean arts and the traditional ones, is that the modern arts worked from these manuals once they were rediscovered to add "traditional moves" back into the systems. This has led to a wide amount of interpretation of these moves. If, as many "legends" claimed, these founders of the modern arts had studied with the underground masters of Korea there would have been no need to go back to these manuals to update the arts. This has been pretty well researched and documented in a series of articles published in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. However, it's also clear that the Modern Korean arts have grown significantly from their Japanese bases and are truely "Korean" in their own rights. Anyone who suggests otherwise is trying to pick a fight. Unfortunately, for reasons of national pride, there has been a real effort to "rewrite history" and create a historical legitimacy to a good group of arts that really don't need it. - Matt
Good post Matt, But Mongrels?-Woof! (Mongols me thinks!). Yes TaeKyon and HanPul look very Chinese and both originated in the hinterland of the current Chinese/ Korean Border, where systems contain common elements including 'the special kicks as used in.....'. Like Mule Kicks, Hip Turning Kicks that spiral upwards etc. Also, there are many Chinese Arts taught in Korea, that have developed into their own seperate versions of those arts, this is well documented and their are plenty of cultural websites out there to have a look at, regarding this long-time phenomenom. To Roga: The book on Tae Kyon is called something Like 'Tae Gum' or 'Tae Gyun' and is published by Barktur (Not Baktur as I said originally) Books Korea. Their URL is www.barktur.com (Also look up Barktur Publishing, Seoul Korea). I don't seem to be able to access their site at present. I did recieve a whole load of Promotional Material from them to review for my website, but have currently lost touch with them, I hope they haven't gone bust, because those Tae Kyon books cost a fortune to make. To Tosh: Barktur have published a book on HanPul as well as the Tae Gyun titles. Again a very beautiful book, full of excellent photography. You can also Access an American Website on HanPul if you type Hanpul into Google. Don't know how genuine this school is. One final thing regarding Disciples comment on the Joint locks of Korean Arts. Sorry, this is simply Not True. Hapkido locks are just Chin Na/ Ju Jitsu locks and the stuff in Hwarang-Do and Kuk Sul Won are nabbed from the same sources. Even if these techniques had or did develop within Korea as well as other places, the techniques are the same, because any good lock works on the same principles, those of Human Structural Weaknesses. Hence why European Medieval fighting manuals such as Fiore Del Liberi's 'Flower of Battle' (1410), contain the same Locking techniques as found in Chin Na and many other Oriental systems... In the Book I refer to on Tae Gyun (Tae Kyon), there are a locking techniques shown, all of which would be more than familiar to anyone practicising any Chinese or Japanese system that favoured locking. | I know that some teachers of Korean systems do say such things as 'These Locks are Unique', my Hapkido instructor said the same to me, but frankly it's not true, slight variants within different systems yes, but all working on the same principles.
Cool now I think understand but I have a different question. What are all the styles of TKD (If there are any)?
Oops. Darnt hat typing faster than I think. :-( Interestingly enough, the person who brough the family Chinese system that I practice to the US learned it in Korea. And I have a friend who learned Praying Mantis Kung Fu from a Korean teacher as well. This is a pretty common thing in the arts. As many others have said before, we all have common bodies and common weaknesses. So one has to expect that given enough time, two geographically dispersed groups will reach the same solution. - Matt
Base art Roga, TKD's base art is mostly shotokan karate or Kong Soo Do in Korean. It has been changed and modified for local traditions. Ever wonder why TKD only kicks to the head, unlike other karate type arts? It is an ultimate insult to hit a person in the face with your hand in Korea, but not if you kick them in the face. No, kick has nothing to do with knock riders off horses in ancient times. Sounds impressive, but not. Mountainsage
Me Too I kick to the stomach also, because I have a hard time getting my leg much higher than that. Mountainsage
Since all instructors teach differently, but keep the main stuff in the art is there any separtions of TKD? I know that TKD is a style that uses weapons (right?) but I am not taught any of them (which is ok but would prefer the other).I pick these names of styles from this thread so can you tell me if they are still practiced? Tae Kyon, HanPul, Hwa Rang Do, Kuk Sool, Yul Woon, & Soo Bahk Do.
Tae Kyon is still practised in Korea. Whether this has ben a continuous tradition, or whether it was revived, is open to speculation, but there are classes in Korea that train in Tae Kyon, definately. There are lots of articles published on the internet about different rarer Korean Systrems such as the aforementioned Tae Kyon and also Ssirum (Korean Wrestling-more like Sumo than Mongolian style) etc. Hwarangdo is big in America, same goes for Kuk Sool Won, both these system swere formulated in the Late 1950s/ early 1960s. Han Pul is still trained inKorea, but is apparently very rare. I know someone who trains in Soo Bahk Do, the only one out of the list that I'm not certain about is Yul Woon.
It seems that everyone in TKD you talk to has a different viewpoint on the beginning and history of tae kwon do. Thanks for your version. Everytime I read one, I learn something new!
During the Japanese occupation, Tang Soo Do founder Grandmaster Hwang Kee fled to Manchuria, China and returned to Korea in 1945, and started the school called Moo Duk Kwan, which means ‘The Institute of Martial Virtue, to teach his art of Tang Soo Do. ‘Tang Soo Do is not a new martial art, but is rather, a martial art deeply ingrained in the tradition of Korea with origins in the history of the martial arts. By starting the Moo Duk Kwan, Grandmaster Hwang Kee sought to re-establish Tang Soo Do as a premier martial art of Korea after years of its suppression by Japanese occupation forces. He hoped that his school would lay the foundation for a modern, scientific study of the martial arts, one that could blend historical fact with present day practice.’ Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do are the same art. Tang Soo Do was its original name, but in 1960, Grandmaster Hwang Kee officially changed its name to Soo Bahk Do in order to register it with the Korean government as the Korean traditional Martial Art. He changed it name as the Korean government though the name Tang Soo Do had too much Chinese influence, and therefore wouldn’t accept it.
What are the distinctions between each of the arts I stated(Tae Kyon, Tang Soo Do, HanPul, Hwa Rang Do, Hap Ki Do, TuKido, Kuk Sool, Yul Woon, & Soo Bahk Do)? Is there any other styles that are like these? I'm trying to find as many as I can.
