The ultimate WMA on horseback-thread

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Stolenbjorn, Dec 11, 2010.

  1. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    (and EMA'ers are invited to share their input as well!)

    WMA/jousting was mentioned elsewhere, and I thought that it's worth a thread.

    There exists several manuals on warfare on horseback. What most of them have in common is that they build on the footed-section, and mounted techniques are usually depictured in the same manuals as footed techniques, and in Fiore, you are supposed to read the manual as a whole, you're supposed to build on previous chapters, and should not pay too much attention to the weapons wielded, more the principles. So when you first do the wrestling-section, you're supposed to take the principles shown there with you into the following sections, etc.

    What we see on mounted WMA, is (of course) the wielding of a lance, where we see a lot of deflections and controlling of the centre, and parry-repostes.
    Here is a picture of fiore mounted, surprisingly hard to come across, had to find it on the getty museum, actually. (I guess most of the fiore-groups out there is most interrested in the foot-section, and don't bother putting up the mounted pictures..) http://www.getty.edu/art/collections/images/l/14353901.jpg

    We allso see a lot of longsword wielded onehended, applying a lot of the same principles as on foot (other than you have four legs instead of two) Here's a link to a picture from Solothurner Fechtbuch http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/SoloT/0010.jpg

    More special, is perhaps the extent wrestling is applied allso on horseback, here's a pic from Talhoffer: http://jfgilles.perso.sfr.fr/escrime/bibliotheque/talhoffer_ambras/images/111.jpg
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Awesome thread. I look forward to following this one. It's a portion of WMA (and for that matter most MA's) that is commonly overlooked. Very interesting.

    Somewhat along the same lines... many years ago I spent some time following some of the rodeo circuits around the US and was amazed to see the amount of communication and work that went on between cowboy and horse. No joke. They moved as one. Watching roping drills got me to thinking that the same skills could easily be applied to combat of say a mounted combatant and one on foot. Perhaps substitute a lance for a lasso or that sort of thing. Also noted was the power of 4 very strong legs (the horse) on the floor versus having two. A massive advantage if used right it seem.

    Any thoughts?
     
  3. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Some claim that the portugeese mounted toreador-stuff can give some idea as how it would have been to meet knights in europe in the medieval times (perhaps allso eastern mounted warriors as well). Others claim that this tradition was refined after the knights era was over. Some sources states that knights were poor riders. IMO the truth was probably that quality would vary greatly from area to area and to family to family. The knight's warhorse is claimed to have been the "dextrarius", others claim that only a small fraction of knights actually possessed "dextrari".

    Some claim that "dextrarius" was a definition of a properly trained horse with the right mindset, regardless of race, others think that the andalus of the spanish/portugese pininsula is the decendants of the knights warrior-breed; the dextrarius.

    So looking at this brilliant video (not wanting to venture into tha animal rights-discussion), is perhaps a glimpse into what the ulitmate mounted knight could have been capable of doing on a battlefield; I'm thinking about the feints at around 1 minute in particular: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqFON2tfq6k"]YouTube - Merlin, A Fantastic Horse[/ame]
     
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Simply awesome work by horse and rider!! who would have thought a horse would have that type of lateral movement! jeebus!!! Maybe because we are used to seeing horses going from point A to point B in a straight line that I for some reason figured they must not have great lateral movement. Boy was I dead wrong!
     
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    One hell of a horse in that clip!

    Here's another, slightly more sedate, example of good horse and rider co-ordination. I've heard people mention that dressage is supposed to have it's roots in military type manoeuvres.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPJGEzI3aIc&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]YouTube - ANKY VAN GRUNSVEN - WEG2006 Freestyle Final[/ame]


    Stolenbjorn,

    Do you have any idea on the type of protection the mounts would of had?

    I would think it would have had a bearing on the types of manoeuvres performed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
  6. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Protection for horses have varied greatly from time to time. In the era I know most about (late 1300's to early 1400's), armor for the horse boils down to the chaffron, made often made of cuirbouilli, or made of metal like the two in this pic: http://www.arador.com/gallery/belg79.jpg

    They allso often had textile cloth (don't know what it's called in english).

    It seems that attempts was made to armor the horses, but it was never popular, some chainmail, some platemail was made, but poor sources on it ever gaining popularity in combat, probably as it made the horse overheat and loose agility.

    Why horses wasn't targeted in warfare is one question that allways puzzle us, but one reason can be that horses worked the best when they made undiciplined footed opponent rout, turn and run, then beeing cut down from behind. In the battle of waterloo, french pistol-cavallery mounted several charges at british close infantery-formations, but their sergeants stood in the rear rank and shot anybody that turned to flee, and the french riders never managed to force the horses into the infantery formation, they allways turned like 2-5 meters from the stalwart infantery.

    It seems that the knight was most devastating shock weapon in the late 11th century, a period where armor was only mail-shirt, mail hood, kite shield and (perhaps) mail leggings, a timeperiod where footsoldiers mostly was concripted amateurs. Later, when armor improved, the knight (ironically) became increasingly insignificant, due to increasingly disciplined footsoldiers. At the infamous Agincourt, the foot-soldiers have been groomed after several decades of warfare, and disiplined british foot-men (and the longbow) makes the french knights dismount and attack on foot.
     
  7. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member

    from http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-23858.html
    Posted by Azeitung (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/member.php?u=10197)

    I've never trained on horse, since I'm only 1st degree with the World Kuk Sool Association(WKSA), but I have seen other Kuk Sool artists of all ranks (including underbelts) training at other schools not affiliated with the WKSA proper. Master Sims (http://www.familymartialart-kuksool.com/instructors.htm) is often training on horseback.
     
  8. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    What sort of stuff do they do from horseback, is it horse-on-horse-fencing or horse-to-foot, or both? Is wrestling involved?
     
  9. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Awesome clip.

    Given the sophistication of the surviving combat manuals, I can't imagine that knightly riding was any less sophisticated and could well have been very like the video. They were professional warriors after all. Their survival hinged on horsemanship in addition to their proficiency with more conventional martial arts training.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  10. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    My god that horse was awesome.
    I once had the thought that bull fighters may have had some link to historical swordsmanship. Anyone have any knowledge on how they train their final sword thrusts? Does the foot work resemble anything from WMA?
     
  11. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I haven't studied the toreadors much (I don't really like bull-fighting), so I cannot say. I guess their strike is a bit awkward, as it is a downwards-thrust, so I guess it's difficult to get much momentum; some sort of "posta longa" to use a Fiore expression. Body mechanics are the same wether you stab a dead-tired bull or an opponent. -but this is only guesswork.

    Langenschwert:
    I want to agree with you, but we cannot let personal feelings get in the way of the sources we find, and sources from medieval times on knights' performance is varied, therefore I am afraid we cannot say that all knights would be able to perform as the rider of "Merlin".

    My guess is as good as yours, though, we can only speculate from what we read in the sources. Here are some second-hand sources (I have heard theese remarks by my friend who is studying and planning to make a book on the subject)

    One source comments on the poor performance of european knights during a battle, that they were not able to attack, because of their poor riding-abilities in one instance.

    One source tells of a knight-unit loosing a battle after one charge, as their horses panic, and they are not able to rally their steeds until the battle is over.

    A scandinavian source tells of knights beeing defeated, as they're trapped in a forrest by footmen and cut down (IIRC).

    Several sources describes the ultimate warhorse as the "Dextrarius", that is worth 100 ordinary horses, or somthing around that sum. Some speculate that dextrarius = andalus(like Merlin in the video clip)

    A close up picture shows how a knight don't use mail "Underpants", and we who have tried to ride are allmost certain that mounted knights never used anything but mail-skirts, as the mail makes the saddle very slippery, and wears down the saddle very quickly. The groin is therefore often mentioned as a good place to place the dagger if a mounted knight disenagages and you manages to get close and personal with him.
     
  12. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Well true enough... not all knights were Fiore or Liechtenauer or Enguerrand de Coucy either. But I suspect the high-end guys could have done this, or something equally impressive.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  13. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    I presume that skills like Merlin has would be more common in light horse troops rather than heavy horse. It would also be fairly difficult to perform in a battle where everybody was hemmed in close. Seems more like what you would see in scouts or perhaps the borderers of England/Scotland.
    I suppose there could also be a question of whether a horse accustomed to dancing away from attacks in that manner, would be good in a charge?
     
  14. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    The skills in the Merlin video was never meant for battlefield, but the level of control shown is an indication on what is possible to achieve from horseback. Actual charges is another ballgame, actually most people agree that the charge into enemy formations was probably more about showing a massive wall, that made the enemy infantery turn, and were then mowed down.

    The skills shown here is relevant when you've engaged inside a routing infantery formation, where you in a split second have to decide who are prone for attack, and who are closing on you. In theese circomstances, piruettes, and sideways movement is crucial. Remember that the horse don't bother with the extra weight of an armoured person, and wether the knight manages to keep his balance-point is the only limiting factor of armor, not the horse.

    Finally, the left-right-feints could come very handy when charging towards an enemy with raised lance, or longsword, regarding controlling the centre. When people do jousting today, they say that the willingness of the horse to performe sideways movement is a very important quality.

    Finally-finally, rememeber that in the heydays of the knight he didn't actually wear so much armor, only mail and helmet, like in this picture:
    http://www.spin.net.au/~runningman/NVG/Pics/Norman_knight.jpg
     
  15. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member

  16. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Interesting stuff & great video clip...
    Regarding foot-soldiers dealing with horseback riders in a packed battle situation I remember reading a description of Scottish Highlanders rolling under the horses and thrusting their long daggers (dirks) into the horses bellies....
    other 'going for the horse rather than the rider techniques' included cutting the horses face when they got within sword range.

    Louie
     
  17. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Yep. This + why they didn't amror the horses more, leads us to believe that the mental picture many have of the knight as physical shock-unitis, as they are depictured in Lord of the Rings, when they ride down rank after rank of enemy that are crushed beneath hooves, lances and swords is a myth. The truth probably lies closer to the knight breaking the morale of the enemy, and that it is foremoth a psykological shock-weapon, than a physical shock-weapon. IMO the true secret behind the norman and later knights were their ability to work in formation, and to impose "morale-tests" on their enemy. The soon foot-infantery begins to get the same level of disipline as knights, the knighs are beginning to loose control of the battlefield.

    The battle of Hastings is often described as a battle where the modern knight crushed the elite foot-men of Goodwindson. IMO, the battle was won, as William used the mobility, morale and discipline of his cavallery to "flee" from the battlefield, luring Goodwindsons men to pursue, loosing their formation, and when the Normans turned 180*, they were able to cut the footmen down in a grand melee, where skills shown in the Merlin-movie would have come in very handy.

    On knight vs knight, I think symetric(ritualized) warfare was an important factor, a sort of gentlemans-warfare, where you treated your opponent with respect, often was related to him far out in the pedigree, and where you trusted eachother to spare ones lives if one surrendered after a honerous fight. This sort of warfare gradually evolved into the organized joust-events, that were quite anarcistic in the beginning, and only in the 16th century became fully ritualized and with extensive rules that everybody agreed upon.
     
  18. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    It would be interresting to get some explenation to what they're doing in those pictures. Some of the stances resemble somewhat thing I have seen in european manuals, but it's so difficult to find theese pictures online. Here are some youtube-clips of people trying to re-create HEMA on horseback:
    Grappeling from horseback(from fiore):
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnfszPLWFiY"]YouTube - hammaborg, rossfechten, fiore abrazare on horseback[/ame]
    Talhoffer sword from horseback: In this clip, you have to go to about 1 minute to be able to see the technique, that's where they start with the slow-motion:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ETaHlIpU4&NR=1"]YouTube - Rossfechten nach Talhoffer 1467 BEA Pferd 09[/ame]

    Here is another one by the same pair, this vid. is a bit better IMO, apart from some show-off: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuCev2OYdN0"]YouTube - rossfechten nach talhoffer[/ame]
     
  19. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    Hi Stolenbjorn, have you read any Pietro Monte? I seem to recall that one of his books (Colectana?) talks about mounted warfare and jousting (admitedly it is much later that the period we are talking about), as well as the types of horses to be selected.
     
  20. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Is it a portugese manuscript? I think it sounds familiar, perhaps I've heard it from my friend who is working on a synopsis putting all mounted manuals together. Do you have a link?
     

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