Browsing through the latest edition of TKD Times Magazine (November 2010), I saw a 2-page advertorial on our another Kuk Sool cousin... Tae Sool Hap Ki Do Founder is GrandMaster Troy Trudeau - President of the World Tae Sool Association. Certified by Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman. Their Website is: http://taesoolwon.com/default.aspx Congratulations on the new article in TKD Times...and if you are around the forum - welcome!
I'm part of the Tae Sool Won, and have been since 2008. GM Trudeau is a wonderful martial artist, and very technically proficient (not to mention, one of the nicest guys you could meet). Tae Sool Won itself, as an art, IS Kuk Sool Hapkido blended (pretty seamlessly) with PaSaRyu Mudo (and some unique technique sets that GM Troy has contributed). Through the TSW style GM Troy teaches to convey all that he has learned over his 40 years of MA study. PaSaRyu adds many unique forms to the art, as well as rare two man sets that stem from the Kwonbup of Yoon Byung In :-D
Clarification. I have not read the TKD Times article, so I can only talk about the message I am responding to. GM Trudeau created Tae Sool, and the material presented was akin to Hap Ki Do. I do not certify martial arts, only martial artists. GM Trudeau recently tested for 8th degree at the Gathering of Grand Masters. GM Trudeau was not promoted, because the material presented was not sufficient for the rank requested in Tae Sool Hap Ki Do. GM Trudeau claims that he presented all there was to see in Tae Sool; however, I looked at the Hap Ki Do part of the name. As you can clearly see in OTL's message, the art is really presented as Tae Sool HAP KI DO, and I figured it would be. Hence, that is why I looked at it as a test in Hap Ki Do. We have all seen how folks looked at Combat Hap Ki Do, so this should not be a surprise. This is not a slam to GM Trudeau; however, I felt that the message I am responding to is not a clear picture of where things stand. Recognizing an art is not part of what I do, and I'd rather leave this sort of thing to someone who feels better qualified than I am. Personally, I think that the creation of a new art requires a LOT more than rearranging a syllabus or mixing parts of one art with another. IMHO, if there is not a significant new principle introduced, there is no need or justification to call it a new art. BUT... that is just my opinion. I do not look down on anyone who claims to be the founder of a new art, I simply do not involve myself with such things. GM Trudeau tested with us some years ago, and he failed that test along with one of my own students. I was very pleased to see that he did not quit, and he came back later to do it again. This clearly shows me that GM Trudeau has the heart to make it. There also seems to be a misunderstanding about what makes one my "student". My "students" train with me on a regular basis, and they pay training fees just like the students in most schools do. I also have "members" of NKMAA, and they pay a membership fee. I do NOT consider the members of NKMAA as my students, even though we have a great relationship. In fact, MOST of the NKMAA members have their own instructor, and I provide services their instructor does not have. For example. Master Thomas Gordon is an NKMAA member, but his TKD instructor is GM Hwang, and his HKD instructor is one of GM West's students. GM Trudeau is an NKMAA member, but his main instructor is listed as GM Kang Rhee, founder of Passa Ryu, and it was GM Rhee who promoted GM Trudeau to 8th dahn. There are several organizations whose certification I accept as proof of rank, and there are many more that I do NOT accept. The organizations I do NOT accept are generally know to be certificate mills. Since I am not a clairvoyant, I make mistakes; however, I correct them as I am made aware of them. I do not take anyone's word for this... I check this out for myself the best way I can, and I make my decision based on that and my gut feeling. Is my system foolproof??? Heck no. Then again, I have not found anyone else's organization to be fool proof either. Whenever I am not sure about someone's claims of rank, I ask for proof. This can be done via video footage or in person. I look at such applications in the same way I would look at my own students' performance. Sometimes it is good, and sometimes IMHO it is not. I do not claim to be a know it all, and I do not ASK members to test for me. THEY ask ME, and I oblige. If they do not provide solid evidence of rank, I do not register them at ANY rank until they test or provide such proof. OTL can verify this, as he applied for membership in NKMAA a long time ago but could not provide proof. I do not judge people, I just want proof. He could not provide it, so he registered to test in the art of Tang Soo Do at the event here last August. According to his application, Tang Soo Do is the art he studied. OTL chose not to test at the GoG, and I respect his decision. According to a facebook message, OTL was recently awarded a 4th dahn in HKD. Again, I do not judge... others may have a different take on this. Will I register that rank with NKMAA? I have not been asked to; however, given what I know of OTL's training background and age, there is no way. My reason is simple. Tang Soo Doo may be closely related to Tae Kwon Do, and I could perhaps see someone making that transition. To make the transition from Tang Soo Do 2nd dahn (third dahn was to my knowledge not completed) to 4th dahn HKD, not a chance. The fundamentals of the arts are too different, and there is IMHO no way such a transition can be made in such a short time. Someone else thought different, and that is a choice they have to live with. On a number of occasions, when folks made some snide comments, I have "gone to bat" for GM Trudeau as well as OTL. These gentlemen have a lot of knowledge, and I do not question that. The fact is that OTL probably has more book knowledge than I have, and GM Tudeau has been certified to 8th dahn by GM Rhee... a long time and respected practitioner of Korean martial arts. I respect their choices, and I wish them all the best in their martial arts endeavors; alas, when it comes to using my name and that of NKMAA in an article as this one, I have no choice but to clarify what is real. I do not look for problems, but I do not beat around the bush either when the need arises. Rudy
From your very informative post Saja, I can't say I envy your position. Although it also makes me kind of glad that in the arts I am pursuing now the skill required for rank can be more easily quantified.
Herbo... it kills me at times to have to state my views or fail students; however, not to speak my piece in a case like this is like a slap in the face for those who worked their collective butts off for everyone to see last August. In NMAA, the buck stops with me, and I try my best to make sure that the certification of our members is the best I can give them. This, more often than not, makes me look like the bad guy. On the other hand, I did not stir up this controversy... I merely reacted to it as honest as I could. Many folks talk about making a difference when it comes to preserving the integrity in martial arts, but few are willing to put it on the line when it comes to acting. If one were to look back to past issues of the now defunct Dojang Digest, they would find that I actually stated that GM Pellegrini's had as much right to his Combat HKD as any of the founders had starting theirs. In fact, GM Trudeau has that same right , and I have no problem with that. This does not mean that I would actively support such things, as I do not believe in it. Since I founded NKMAA (not an art), I believe I have a duty to the members of that organization to keep NKMAA certification meaningful. Unfortunately, I get in trouble at times in order to make sure everyone is clear on what I did or did not do when it comes to the claims of others. People within NKMAA know how I think; and, if they make statements that are not clear, I will do my best to set it straight. In no way am I trying to hurt anyone, and it often hurts me to keep my promises. Several years ago, I had someone ask me to recognize the art of Shinsei HKD, and it included certifying a bunch of people at hight ranks. While the money was good, I could not help these folks. After looking over the supporting video footage, I saw it as Jiu Jitsu (the art I started in, so I do have an idea about what it is), and I told them as much. I also told the Masters of the group that their JJ looked very good, and I meant it. Since NKMAA only deals with Korean martial arts, and I do not feel qualified to recognize new arts, I just could not help them and sent them along to GM Ji (via GM Cyrus). Much to my surprise, I later saw that GM Cyrus had accepted the group instead of referring them to GM Ji. Not sure if they are still with him or not. Anyway, the bottom line of this is that I have certain beliefs, and I try my best to hold fast to them regardless of financial losses this may mean. Some might say I am not a good business man, but I sleep good at night. IMHO, certificate mills do what they do, and I do what I do. There is room in this world for all, and I live and let live as long as it does not directly affect me, NKMAA, or the members of our group. Rudy
Wow. Lots to think about - but before thinking too much - good luck to GM Trudeau and all his students!!! As I'm just now getting back into training and I've been doing a lot of web surfing trying to get a handle on the "state of the art" so to speak after what I've learned has been dubbed the Kuk Sool Won "franchise fiasco". I know this kind of stuff has been going on a long time, but the outcome is the same in that there are more than a few VERY good Martial artists left to teach and train outside "the Won". I'm sure I don't have to point out to this forum that when KSW was in expansion phase it was happy to take on teachers and Masters who already had a high degree of proficiency in whatever style they studied. So now these Masters are going back to teach what they know - taking the strong points of KSW along as well. (And I do believe that KSW has many strong points indeed!) What then do you call what you do?!? Given what I've read online the answer to that is...anything you want. However most are choosing variants of existing terms that reflect the fact that it is a Korean martial art they are practicing. But does that automatically make it Hapkido? ...Taekwondo? ... Kuk Sool ...Akijutsu? ...or the old standby "Korean Karate"??? And SajaNim, I applaud your efforts (and wide community recognition) to keep standards of practice high, but certainly do not envy you having to make sense of it all! I was reading some thoughts by GM Seo who was of the mind that "Hapkido" as a term was already the most entrenched in describing the overall practice of integrated Korean martial arts - and I have to agree. I assume that's what the early founders of Kuk Sool were trying to describe with their particular name. Ah...but what's in a name? So to steal a quote from an MA documentary: "The BEST martial art is the one you PRACTICE."
I was also surprised to see GM Trudeau's claim to be certified and a student of GM Timmerman. His article posting lists him as an 8th dahn which he was promoted to by GM Rhee. GM Timmerman tested GM Trudeau to 7th dahn a few years ago yet there is no mention to that. I am also sorry GM Timmerman is presented yet another claim he has to clarify.
I received a personal note from OTL, and he pointed out that my mentioning him was not appreciated. I am not much for political correctness, and I think it a sad replacement for truth, honesty, and respect. Having said that, most folks who know me would also know I am blunt to the point of being viewed as insensitive. Alas, what you see is what you get with me. I wear my heart on my sleeve, I will call it the way I see it, and you will always know where I stand. I do not beat around the bush, and I think political correctness is a pile of crap that has caused good people to lie to themselves in order to duck confrontation where truth needs to be told. I do not believe in starting confrontations, and I'd rather walk away; however, I will never duck an issue, even if it means to admit I am wrong. As I read back over my post, I can clearly see where one might think that I disrespected OTL. This was not my intend, and all I was hoping to do was to share his experience with NKMAA. In the hope it would help others learn more about me and the organization, and how this relates to the article in question. I publicly apologize for not asking OTL if I could use his example, and I am sad if I caused him stress. Rudy
My personal wish is that folks will take a step back, grab their favorite beverage, breath a bit and reflect on the last few posts. Over the last decade I have read many posts and e-mails wherein folks have placed responsibility for the current state of KMA at the foot of leaders who have not been candid, honest or transparent in stating their position on a given topic. At the risk of putting this post in the "be careful what you ask for" file let me say that I think we have just gotten a taste of what that is, laid out on the page in black-and-white. Stated another way.....this is what it looks like when a KMA leader takes his responsibilities head-on and discharges his responsibilities to all around him in a candid, honest and transparent manner. My sense is that if the KMA are to survive with any integrity, we would do well to model this behavior. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
Please if you will, Out-to-Lunch, can you describe for us some of the things that GM Trudeau is teaching that really stand out for you?? In other words, what's the "neat stuff" beyond the mutually shared Kuk Sool curriculum that is special in TSW/TSHKD?
Well there are only so many ways to bend a joint, IMHO there are only three real wrist locks, and they all are actually the same lock (attacking the ulnar nerve). Honestly, I aligned myself with GM Troy because of his knowledge of some of the more rare kwon bup material, that is not practiced by many, but I have come to appreciate his pov on the hapkido arts, as well. In the end, Tae Sool is GM Troy's take on the arts of KS and Korean Karate (Kwon Bup, TKD etc), it is his method of transmitting his understanding of the material. If you look at the name Tae Sool Won, it about sums every thing up...Tae for TKD/Kwon Bup/PaSaRyu, Sool from Kuk Sool and WON to mean school/organization. So Tae Sool Won is GM Troy's school/organization for transmitting his knowledge of both of these arts. IMHO there is nothing new under the sun, when it comes to martial arts...There are only different methods of teaching/transmitting the same material. If you're looking for some super secret ninja invisibility technique sets, you're not going to find it in TSW (and good luck elsewhere, as well LOL)...There are no secrets, plain and simple. TSW, simply is a group of passionate individuals training and transmitting these arts under GM Troy's guidance.
Actually, there are 9 distinct 'base' joint wrist techniques. All other joint wrist techniques are variations of those 9: 전 굴 수경 Jeon Kul SuKyeong 前 屈 手頸 Front Bend Wrist 후 굴 수경 Hu Kul SuKyeong 後 屈 手頸 Rear Bend Wrist 내 굴 수경 Nae Kul SuKyeong 內 屈 手頸 Inside Bend Wrist 외 굴 수경 Woi Kul SuKyeong 外 屈 手頸 Outside Bend Wrist 내 회전 수경 Nae HwoiJeon SuKyeong 內 回轉 手頸 Inside Rotate Wrist 외 회전 수경 Woi HwoiJeon SuKyeong 外 回轉 手頸 Outside Rotate Wrist 전 굴 내 회전 수경 Jeon Kul Nae HwoiJeon SuKyeong 前 屈 內 回轉 手頸 Front Bend Inside Rotate Wrist 전 굴 외 회전 수경 Jeon Kul Woi HwoiJeon SuKyeong 前 屈 外 回轉 手頸 Front Bend Outside Rotate Wrist 전 굴 외 각 수경 Jeon Kul Woi Kak SuKyeong 前 屈 外 角 手頸 Front Bend Outside Angle Wrist
IMHO the only true wrist locks are those attacking the ulnar nerve...Inside wrist rotation, outside wrist rotation, and upward spiral rotation...from those a myriad of techniques and combination can be formed...I do not consider wrist "roll up" (straight compression) techniques true joint locks, because, they rely solely on pain compliance (versus a very distinct nerve reaction), and flat out have no effect on faaaaar too many people. I've had real experience applying joint locks a PCP user (they literally do not feel pain, and as such pain compliance "techniques" go out the window), and the ulnar nerve compression type of joint lock still very effectively buckled the knees. My experience is limited to one isolated incident, however one of my training partners is an LEO of 20 years, and has had numerous encounters of these techniques working in that type of situation, and the video footage to back it up/examine it....Quite intriguing, actually.
...and actually, in my group of training partners...We've collectively only had one incident where this type of technique DID NOT work LOL Another one of our LEO friends was removing a perp from a car with a joint locking technique, and when he got him out of the vehicle, the perp took a swing at him...In response my friend cranked the wrist lock and the man started writhing and yelling but would not go down...Turns out he was amputated from just above the knees, and as such the typical "knee buckle" reaction to ulnar manipulation in wrist locks was not so effective, it still cause pain and compliance, but not a typical take down LOL :-D
Hmmm. In my experience, I have seen far more people who are not affected by the pressure points than by, for example, the Z type wrist lock. Alas, this is going to end up in a debate where the outcome is as predictable as a religious debate, and the only way we can prove out point is on the mat. That is not likely going to happen; however, if anyone IS interested in researching this kind of stuff on the mat, Master Gordon hosts a wonderful seminar in Crestview, FLA (April). To my knowledge, GM Trudeau will be there, and so will I. PLEASE do not look at this as a challenge of any kind. I am just interested in learning more, and "parking lot" sessions have been very fruitful in that. Rudy
I agree 100%, to be certain. When I speak of manipulating the ulnar nerve, I am speaking of doing so in wrist locks, like a z (inside wrist) manipulation ;-) The pain compliance techniques I speak of are very much like pressure points, where some people just are not effected ;-)
How do you know you are attacking only the ulnar nerve? Did you do a nerve conduction study? There are actually 3 nerves accessible at the wrist: ulnar, median and radial nerves. They form the bulk of nerve entrapment pathology in BOTH Western and Eastern medicine. The radial nerve results in wrist drop, the ulnar nerve results in claw hand and the median nerve results in ape hand. Each nerve can be attacked from the front (palm up), the back (palm down) and the sides...resulting in the 9 theoretical attacks in post #12. Perhaps you were never taught how to attack the radial and median nerves? Or more likely, perhaps you were indeed attacking these nerves...but thought you were attacking the ulnar nerve each time. FWIW, if you had to choose a nerve to attack for most damage, go for the median nerve...as without it, the perp loses full use of the thumb.
Okay, first of all...This has nothing to do with TSW...This is :topic: and deals with my particular training group. Actually, yes! Two of the instructors in our training group are doctors (I forget their specialties) but they spent considerable time compiling our curriculum...2nd gup includes a comprehensive overview of the major nerves that we use for locking and vital point striking (4th, 3rd, and 2nd gup all have anatomy study requirements. We focus primarily on the ulnar nerve because of the nature of the locks that we initiate...It's very important to have continuity of principle, and the locks, strikes, and grabs must all flow together seamlessly. Do we have other "locks" and techniques that place emphasis on attacking other parts of the anatomy? Yes, but they are taught as "ooops" techniques, whereas something has gone wrong in our primary mode of execution.
Here's a helpful chart: (click here for chart) Or there's always a great mnemonic device, which requires you to remember "Women's Christian Temperance Association" and use the initials for this imaginary group below the word RUM (rum being one type of liquor that the CWTA would be fighting against, ergo a bit of irony). R U M W C TA R (for damage to the radial nerve) is paired with W (for wrist drop, the result). U (for damage to the ulnar nerve) is paired with C (for claw hand) and M (for damage to the median nerve) is paired with TA (for thenar adduction). I believe med students learn tons of these tricks to help them get through exams and what-not.
