I thought you guys might find this little seminar interesting. You might even see some folks on here you might know. I don't question the validity of the material but I do wonder if the participants who attended or purchased his dvds realize most of the information/exercises has been presented a la Scott Sonnen, another Floridian resident, back when VHS was still popular. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2ioFLxmSo0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2ioFLxmSo0[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6OdZbimQW8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6OdZbimQW8[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKTWyTcdVRU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKTWyTcdVRU[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIzdy3z4FFA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIzdy3z4FFA[/ame] Check the whole seminar out while you can because I predict it will be taken down soon. I downloaded them just in case they need to be re uploaded for future reference. (First 4 already posted above) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SQ49N9Ph0Q"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 06.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmJZ_v0aZ7s"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 07.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU9dERpRovE"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar March 2010 08[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w8oq9pWiFQ"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 09.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKo4D-NXFe4"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 10.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf0G6w8pPXI"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 11.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98NQRV28Ks0"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 12.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnmSqFY2zsQ"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 13.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AULHJ_qA3S0"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 14.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d80pKwB1Dw"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 15.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfv8xcjF0NE"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 16.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTz2SFWOUfI"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 17.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lETEWh_8rUU"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar March 2010 18[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBTgh0C-e7g"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar March 2010 19[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u87ID00X_Mg"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 20.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzfc6j7FFW4"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 21.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MMlJsUloZ8"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 22.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhpvANVbzZE"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 23.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO74DUSNR3M"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 24.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyDj1j-o1Xk"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 25.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkiZgmHxHm8"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 26.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLo3jTGID_k"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 27.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoXCgIWgDZM"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 28.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYdltnVY02k"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 29.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpTdkBtKhG8"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 30.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUNJNLmu-Eo"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 31.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEdiwHzRi_8"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 32.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFOhYKkjLtw"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 33.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrtLk55wAQQ"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 34.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r15uDdvSz-w"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 35.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izbOcrw5IFA"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 36.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o47KIseRiu0"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar March 2010 37[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mI6DSnZqik"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 38.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSwvp2nQ1s4"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 39.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fxq4wdA2hE"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 40.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE2Vrnjufkw"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 41.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwdYD54BWkQ"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 42.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmWwZNqhFEo"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 43.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjJzdm6y208"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 44.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqWtcP69DZQ"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 45.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNseai0vXN0"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 46.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbxcsEoiqVo"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 47.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjdkjLWrKu0"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 48.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEGkI8s6BiE"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 49.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXZJszJefbc"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 50.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9p49z8J4Qc"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 51.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-9vQ2R3GFk"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 52.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2vdSaRnBxE"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 53.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGccSvnF6s"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 54.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIQ4nE4_AbQ"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 55.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq37A5RZj9c"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 56.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN_bvQhVWtg"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 57.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8oisNldNCY"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 58.MPG[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-ZIe4jOUPo"]YouTube- Rob Renner Seminar - March 2010 - 59.MPG[/ame]
I'll keep it simple: Rob Renner = shameless whore with horrible movement and zero skill. People in attendance at "seminar" = mindless idiots who willingly wasted their time and money on an otherwise perfectly good day above ground to hang out in a room and play kids games with each other that their own kids would find boring and that incidentally had virtually NOTHING to do with Bujinkan martial art training. And no, I didn't bother watching the "seminar" in it's entirety. That would have made me as stupid as the attendees. The first sixty seconds was brutal enough. - Mark Spada
Wow! Pretty harsh. Do you truly believe nothing of value could be learned from this seminar? Whether good or bad.
Okay, then. Once again I'll keep it simple: This was just more of the same. Rob Renner doing what he does best: standing around a dojo talking it to death. Why oh why do the majority of Bujinkan shidoshi equate "teaching" with "talking"? And why oh why do so many practitioners pay good money and waste time to sit there listening to them? My very first class in Noda at Ishizuka sensei's dojo was two hours. And if you were to condense the time he spent talking in that two hours it wouldn't have amounted to sixty seconds. In short, Rob Renner, like so many other Bujinkan rock stars, are not the least bit interested in shutting up and doing the work. They are only interested in themselves. It is the main reason I no longer attend those group therapy sessions such as Buyu Camp or Tai Kai. Do I REALLY need to go into excruciating detail as to why I think this "seminar" is complete garbage? Really??? C'mon, guys.... - Mark Spada
Mark, Yes, details would be nice. If not then you will be simply making the same generalizations you defending against in another thread about swordwork. I agree with a lot of what you are saying here but isn't that why these kind of events are so popular. People want familiarity, they want to not look foolish or do a bad job at something. I think people want to understand why hence the need for a lot of conversation or explanation. The downside to this is when people believe they understand something they feel like you don't have to doing anything else like train. What you are writing against is the reason why the Bujinkan has such a large membership. That's why people can do a "Bujinkan seminar" that is not Bujinkan knowledge base but simple seminar on self-defense or cane self-defense. You can also get people doing a seminar on Bujinkan Kunoichi which is also unrelated in content. Teachers are filling in the gaps of their Bujinkan knowledge with other things. If Bujinkan had a stricter criteria in terms of knowledge and skill then they would have something to compare themselves against. How many of the people in the Bujinkan would still be there today? If they didn't improve their Bujinkan based skills then they didn't earn their rank. How many Eric Edwards or the real fat guy who is a teacher in Austin Texas would still be in the Bujinkan? You don't need to be skilled and knowledgeable to be a Bujinkan instructor. It is like getting your Bounty Hunter certification training through mail correspondence or getting your Master's degree based on life experience. Anyone can do it so we have the mass appeal. Not to mention the delusion and fantasy spinned into the organization. This is why many people in the Bujinkan try to be great poets without first learning to read and write.
Ive trained with Rob before when he came back to Ocala to do a seminar, as well as in Orlando. Hes a pretty good guy. He conveyed his message well when he was demonstrating the movement. We didnt really go over technique much, just movement. It kinda redefined the way I trained and how I move a bit. But now that I'm out on the westcoast with a new group, its like I'm kinda backwards, so I really dont know what to do.
I'm with mark, the was truely awful, I watched about 5 random clips. God you'd need therepy after a seminars worth. Surely no explanation is required? Pretty obvious what's wrong with it, ie everything! That kick catching thing, come on...... The lame punch he throws, uke counters a really bad ONI kudaki? Then he does a counter on ground, come on....... Food for the ninja bashing trolls
Tried watching the first clip how does someone make a simple excercise sound so complicated? Watched another clip on how one counters a kicking assailant, surely there are simpler methods? Was you at this seminar OP? Who was manning the camera? Whoever it was seemed to be mocking proceedings.
I can't really comment on the video clips because I only watched a couple randomly and so it wouldn't be fair to pass judgement on what I saw (and don't really feel the need to anyway) although I will say that it seemed reasonably representative for better or worse. But I did think it worth making one point. People have said that this footage shows Rob Renner standing round doing a lot of talking. But these videos, despite there being a lot of them, surely don't amount to the entire seminar? They are surely only the highlights, the important teaching points? They're hardly likely to post footage of everyone doing the bits where they're just working on the techniques/movements. Just like the Daikomyosai footage or Tai Kai footage is edited down to the important teaching bits and only shows glimpses of the attendees actually training.
Cool. What are your general thoughts on the clips? And are you thinking of going along to one of his seminars.
These are perhaps the best words written about the martial arts in general and Bujinkan in specific I have seen. Perhaps the biggest thing standing in the way of the average person who won't get better(beyond a certain simple level) is precisely spelled out by jwills: People are afraid to look bad, and like what they know/or are comfortable with. I saw Rob Renner recently at Ayase, and he was "training," with his partner with that smug look a lot of Bujinkan people show when they think they know what they are doing or are better than their training partner. I wasn't impressed by his taijutsu but then again, the movement patterns Hatsumi sensei was demonstrating weren't easy to try to copy. So herein lies the crux of the matter, in order to not look like an idiot because they couldn't recreate the same simple but so difficult moves that they were witnessing, most of the people were making things up that ended up being more complicated and less practical than what was being demonstrated. Two long time Japanese shihan of Hatsumi sensei were also there, but nobody was paying them much attention as they were training with other Japanese deshi. However, their movement was the closest to Hatsumi Sensei's(suprise suprise). Fortunately, this proves jwills remarks wrong, as there are strict criteria for what makes good movement and effective techniques in the Bujinkan. Unfortunately though, in order to learn those criteria, you have to live in Japan for a while and find a shihan who is willing and able to show you these criteria or you will be relegated to doing what so many others have over the years, make up your own crap or borrow it from other arts. Sadly, the average person in this art doesn't have the wherewithal to actually learn the true art, but at least they can be open enough to fail, as this is the only way one truly improves.
I was just going to ask the same thing. Incidentally, the main thought running through my mind after that first class at Ishizuka sensei's dojo aside from "My leg is going to look like a relief map of South America in a few hours" was: "That was just like training back home with my own teacher." Sure, there were minor differences; at my teacher's house for a five hour practice session you're not likely to have to share the space with about a dozen gigantic Dutch practitioners. But the movement and style of teaching was pretty much the same. The point is: it is entirely possible, despite what certain people have attempted to tell me over the years, to experience correct training outside of Japan. - Mark Spada
I'm not going to pretend to be an authority on the Bujinkan. I'm a student of the art and nothing else. I will say this though, I am ultimately responsible for my training. What ever I am learning it is up to me learn the concept and movements and do them. There is no secret method or super teacher that can substitute time spent and hard work.
I'm not going to give my opinion on Rob's ability. He's a Japan resident, probably way better than me, way higher in rank, has many more years and time in than me and i've only met him once. We never trained together, it was more a Japan social. I did however get a good understanding of what the man was about in the short time we were out. The video is there anyway so we can all have a look and try to judge for ourselves (however, I don't think it's possible to do this based on those vids - reason why later.) What I will say is this: The 'receive attack- stop - talk - move - stop - have the uke do something else - move again - stop - talk - move to the most dominant position you can - stop - talk - put uke down' style of teaching doesn't work for me. For several reasons. 1. It encourages uke to stop attacking and to attack unrealistically. 2. You train yourself to stop moving. You fight how you train. It's so much better when learning something to do it slow without stopping as opposed to going from point to point as quickly as possible but stopping between points. 3. The 'moment' is lost. This means there is no realism at all with regards to timing and (dare I say it? yes I do) feeling. Everything breaks down - It's all hollow. Not once have I seen in these vids Mr Renner just 'do it.' This is why I feel it's actually impossible to judge his ability from these vids. The instructors I work with do it first - to show it can work. When I'm uke, I often have no idea what's going to happen when I step up, I just attack with sincerity and take ukemi as appropriate. Afterwards, perhaps it will be done slower so people can see the important points. Often, it's demonstrated on several people so we can all feel it. Small classes are great. Sometimes, yes, there is some stop start involved (it would be wrong of me if I didn't say that.) I would say that if your instructor spends most of the time 'teaching' rather than 'teaching by doing' you might want to think about what that means for your training. Just a thought.
Unfortunately, I don't. Sorry to be so blunt but it's hard enough to learn correctly even if you are in Japan. Look at Rob or other examples. The phrase, Abandon hope all ye who enter here, comes to mind. It's a sad but true fact that probably 99% of the people studying in the Bujinkan haven't mastered even the basics. The few people who have all spent a lot of time training directly under Hatsumi sensei during the different stages of his development and not just the stop and start, hold out your arm years.
This is another common misconception. Unfortunately, nothing further from the truth could be written about the martial arts. Learning something incorrectly or learning the wrong things correctly will guaruntee that you will repeat these incorrect patterns when the chips are down. Practice only makes perfect if you practice the correct things in the correct way. Practice makes permanent-which is why bad habits are so hard to get rid of. If you don't continually work to correct and improve your basics, you will never have a clue or a chance when you get to the upper level teachings. Time spent correctly is worth it's weight in gold. But hard work done incorrectly only creates a building whose foundation is crumble at the first sign of a tremor. That's why your instructor is so vital. There is no amount of hard work or time that can replace a good instructor who can point out your mistakes and help you find ways to improve.
I don't really know the guy. I'm not sure of his rank. I don't really care anyway. I can't watch the clips with sound on because I am at work. So I watched them silently which is better because all you have to look at is technique without the mists of "spin" and "sales pitch" I tried to watch some of his stuff that has been posted the first batch of clips I skimmed through as the seem to just be warm ups and a lot of talking! Is this accurate? The first clip I seemed to find with any fighting technique was in clip #16 I was dissapointed. At 0:53 he recieved possible the worst tsuki I have ever seen with no kamae whatsoever! Was this the intention (as I don't know what he is saying) this is better illustrated in the same clip at the attack he recieves at 1:51. Freeze it at 1:52 and take a good look: Tori has no kamae, no stable base, with back arched back. He does not step offline, to get out of danger should teh attack keep coming after the first punch (as there is no realy reason why uke will throw one punch then just stand there when the tori is soooo open!). His free arm (non blocking arm) is nowhere - down low in a non-usable guard and as he comes in for that shoulder slap (please tell me its not a shuto), his face is heading straight for uke's cocked left fist. I've seen enough.
