Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo-jutsu diagram

Discuss.

 

i prefer hitting people

 

WTF ....simplified version

Threat assessment

Choose tactical option

Utilise tactical option

Walk away / Detain


End

Smurf

 

Haha, I'll print it out, stick it in my wallet and consult it next time I'm the victim of an unbridled result of animosity.

 

I have very mixed feelings about this chart.

On the one hand, if you are training for any specific purpose where you want to improve performance (eg competition fighting/self defence capability), having flow charts identifying training needs, outcomes, goals, thought processes etc is an key part of the training process. More often than not such charts are of more use to the instructor than the majority of trainees. Ultimately, unless you are training purely for fun - you should be able to justify every drill you do from a scientific standpoint, whether that be physiology or psychology related.

What Patrick McCarthy has done here is to attempt to merge in one flow chart a start to finish 'confrontation' that has gone physical, linking to it the various elements of training in Koryu Uchinadi and showing how they support the different things that a person may have to do.

I actually like this, but the problem inherent with all such charts is that the subject is so big that you are always going to leave stuff out. The dilemma therefore is to whether to opt for a milton model of representation or a meta model of representation.

However in my opinion this chart is missing the big stuff and showing what I regard as fundamental flaws with the basics.

The big stuff:
The mind. The mind directs the body. This chart does not address the psychological effects of being in a confrontation (before, during and after) or how training in Koryu Uchinadi helps with the same. Without the will to fight, the physical training is nest to useless. Not everyone is automatically programmed to fight, the ability to do so comes from a mixture of genetics, nurture, circumstances and training - in fact if we were all programmed to fight the human race would probably not have lasted this long (see Why the Reckless Survive as one example of this argument).

Fundamental Flaws in the Basics:
108 Classical HAPV. Nonsense. I'm reasonably well known for writing about HAOV (Habitual Acts of Violence) - which is not quite the same as HAPV (Habitual Acts of Physical Violence) - so I'll elaborate. The number of different ways a human being can attack another human being (without any weapons) is finite, but that number is both small and large. If we consider every possible variation, angle of attack, surface area used, surface area targeted the number is ridiculously large. If we consider the important stuff such as general angle of attack - the number becomes much smaller. If we actually pay attention to the word 'Habitual' and only count the most common attacks, that number creeps down to about 10, fewer if we discount the use of weapons. If we consider the overlaps between those attacks (eg similar angles of attacks) the number becomes smaller still. There are not 108 Classical HAPV unless the word classical denotes martial arts techniques and Habitual only refers to attacks used in martial arts.

 

Sesquipedalianism - the unnecessary use of big words.

Is there a similar word for unnecessarily complicated diagrams?

108 HAPV. 36, 54, 108, its all just chinese numerology and has no place in modern martial art theory.

Mike

 

Hi Gang,

You are just jealous cause it's such a nice chart and you didn't do it first

Personally it's too complicated for me and I think that it should be more like...

Bad thing about to happen
avoid/talk/walk/run

Bad thing happening
run/fight

But then I just like simple - to me simple is good and complicated hurts my brain. Of course as a piece of underlying theory it's good and probably that's exactly how it's meant to be used. We all know the phrase 'analysis paralysis' - in a conflict situation you don't even want K.I.S.S - just KIS - Keep It Simple

All the best./

Robert.

 

Personally I don't see the diagram as complicated. Let's not make a mistake here Robert of thinking this is a diagram of the mental and physical map of a confrontation, this is merely a diagram illustrating how KU training methods address various elements of a physical fight. It is essentially an explanation of elements of the syllabus, not a chart to learn to make you perform better under stress.

 

Hi John,

Agreed 100% - mind you, you could have the chart printed on a four ft square piece of heavy duty canvas, attach to a 4 ft long 1.5" round dowel rod and carry with you everywhere.

In the event of a confrontation you can:
a) Unroll the chart and bore your potential attacker to death.
b) Impress the heck out of potential attacker and recruit as a student.
c) WHACK him hard with the wooden rod.

Seems like a plan to me

All the best.

Robert.

 

Hi,

Just came across this post and nearly dropped without any violence. Nice to see Koryu Uchinadi kenpo Jutsu being discussed but I'm afraid it's one sided. In fact down right attacking and out of order. I'm a member of the IRKRS under Hanshi Mc Carthy with a Shotokan background, boxing and door security experience. I'd like to discuss the other side of the coin in greater detail if you so wish in an amicable manner.

You know the saying " blowing out someone else's candle doesn't make your own burn brighter ;. Thats my thoughts right now. Maybe I'm totally wrong and misunderstood what I'm reading. And isn't the diagram copy righted? So it says on it. How did it end up here to be discussed without hearing the whole story? Its misleading to people who have open minds and cross train.

Regards,

 

WAY to complicated.
you size up the threat. You wouldn't break the arm of somebody who's just throwing a punch at you, and you wouldn't not use breaks on somebody with a knife.
You then excecute the technique that best fits the situation.
Once you deem the subject neutralized/stopped, you may leave.

 

Shambo5772,

Can you offer any counter points to those raised in this thread?

Screaming copyright and "you're all mean" doesn't really help your cause.

 

Good point!!!

 

I wouldn't go that far. Sure there are people who are making fun of it saying it's too complicated. On one hand I agree with them, but I also agree that those who don't like it don't really understand what it's purpose is.

For your average students, it's much more information than is needed. But then your average student wouldn't look that deeply into this sort of thing anyway. I'm not sure at what level of training you are encouraged to know some of the theory (the chart and other things). Obviously, because it's posted here it's available to everyone, that doesn't mean it's an integral part of the syllabus and everyone has to know and follow it.

To use an analogy. A trainer or athlete may simply know along the lines of.. if I run more, I'll get better at running. Or even know how to use training tools like intervals and strength training. However, there comes a point where it's useful either for your own or to guide someone else's training or even for your own personal fulfillment to have more in depth knowledge and understanding about the topic. This will help give you a better understanding of the physiology of what is actually going on the body and hopefully enable you to create more effective fitness and training programs.

I agree with most of what jwt has said as well. It's a training tool. Advanced students and teachers can use it. For example, you can take any element on that chart individually and train it. You could even use it as a dart board to randomise it a bit. But it does bring back that every part of the training should relate to some portion of that chart. As a teacher is can also help co-ordinate lesson plans and the like.

I also agree that it misses out on the psychological aspect in a big way. Both the effect on attacker and defender. But then again I don't know if there is specifically another chart for this.

Regarding the HAPV sets or attacks. From what I am aware, there are only 36 identifies. This is expanded to 108 when you look at the variations of the original 36. They also aren't 'habitual' in that they are common for the general population to use. Instead the techniques were identified as common themes in different martial arts. Whether this still warrants the use of the word 'habitual' I'll leave up to others.

In short, like a lot of the stuff posted pertaining to particular arts, we have no idea in what context it's used. It's like showing a video of people breakdancing in a boxing ring and saying 'discuss'.

All in all, I do believe Patrick McCarthy is a member of these forums, however sporadically he actually appears. Maybe he will show up and 'discuss'.

 

Discuss?!

Is this chart a preemptive attack? Because I think I just had an embolism trying to read it. No chance that I'm going out and mugging anyone tonight.


Stuart

 

I like it, but i am a bit of a PMcC fan.
I think the '108' comes from The Bubishi (and doesn't one of the Karate Katas tranlate as 108 hands?) hence the reference to 'classical' and 'sen sen no sen' etc.
I think it's interesting, it seems to me that Mr McC is very much a visual thinker, so a diagram helping him keep track of and analyse approaches to training, is useful for him.
I am going to print it out and consider it further, maybe a less complicated chart could be forthcoming?:thinking:

 

Flowchart for those of us who know that the red ones go fasta'

 

Hi everyone,

There is good interest here. I'll give my definition as I see it and my experience. The chart is only a chart. A blue print of Koryu Uchinadi kenpo Jutsu put together as a result of hanshi Mc Carthy's research, experience, knowledge and understanding in the fighting arts. Not something to roll up and hit with to deescalate a violent confrontation. In my opinion an easy way of getting an eye view of the system in one. It's there for anyone who wishes to get use from it to see or better understand the different aspects around violent confrontation. Basically how they can happen, the understanding of what to do and how to do it to overcome the situation. Its one person opinion and understanding which is being taken on board by more karate-ka every day.

Charts dont stop conflict or calm down aggressors. Hard training, experience, improving weakness, cross training does as we all know. Putting the chart into practice. Thats the practical and physcial end of Koryu Uchinadi. Every style has a chart/blue print to which it conforms. Why take one and pick bits when we are all training for the same thing. It becomes more about my chart is better then yours clouding and avoiding the main issue. Lets all put up our charts and pick the s--- out of each other. Will we be any better or any further in the end?

I've trained in Shotokan, boxing, Wado, jujitsu, kickboxing. Every style has its strengths and weaknesses. I like them all but I never have come across a multi system incorporating all until now. Working in night clubs and pubs made me realise that you need a bit of everything. The physical and the mental. The variety of the traditional system fulfils what I need and saved me a few times in confrontation. Thats the one thing I do know. I dont be counting how many acts of violence there are in the night club but I'm aware of the most common and how to defend them through the training of sensei Mc Carthy's blue print and gaining the experience. If you want to discuss his chart why not invite him to discuss it before passing judgement?? Or maybe I missed that in a previous thread. I get the feeling of bad feeling. Why?? Mc Carthy sensei is the most open minded talented instructor I have ever met in the practical, physical and mental. A wealth of knowledge and willing to share it. I dont understand the negative against him. Why? why? why?

 

Dude, lighten up. I was making fun of myself for not grokking it. Not the originator of the chart. I'm not familiar with Mr. McCarthy myself. But the commentary I've seen has generally been positive. Relax.