Wing Chun on the floor?

[jimmytofu]

There's only one thing about WC that concerns me..

What happens if the fight goes to the floor?

I've heard the attempted reasoning that if you are doing your WC properly then it will not go to the floor. I think this is a pretty naive way of thinking. Thoughts?

Does anyone cross-train WC with any kind of floor work / grappling?

[Kamon_student]

I started training in wing chun about three months now. Before I train in Lau Gar for 2 years. The association trained under in wing chun is Kamon. Here we are taught a simple defense from the floor and how get back into a standing base. The chief instructer Kevin Chan trains in Brazilian Jujitsu. So some elements are added from that and boxing elements too. The best way is to develope a firm foundation in the wing chun and cross train try some grappling. Because there is not garentee that a fight will remain standing. On the ground you can use your sensity developed from chi soa. At least then you are training for every eventuality as all arts their are always limitations so blend that deals kicking punching elbows knees traping and ground work is the andeote.

[Kamon_student]

You should try look through a judo book/jujitsu just to learn some basic sweeps that can used from wing chun range. May some brake falls.

[CKava]

Nice to see someone from Kevin Chans'school, I was wondering what sort of influence his experience in BJJ had on how his students train Wing Chun. BUt I think you may just have answered my curiousity Id agree wholeheartedly that the best way to improve your groundfighting is GO DO SOME and preferably with someone who is experienced with such things (i.e. grapplers!). Ive heard the argument as well that if you use Wing Chun properly you wont go to the floor but how far you are willing to accept that is up to you, personally, I think its just a way of avoiding the issue. I think an important step in training Wing Chun is to go and practice with people who wont use Wing Chun against you because this helps you to make your Wing Chun much more adaptable. I dont think its necessary if you want to learn to groundfight to go learn a style that deals with it specifically but I do think it is absolutely necessary especially with Wing Chun to learn to adapt it to being horizontal, unless your completely confident that your never going to end up in that situation.

[zumtream]

Wing Tsun (Lung Tings system) does have some ground fighting techniques. I have been taugh some of them and did a very interesting lesson on Footwork Chi Sou. Very strange!
However i also do judo so i would use that if i ever got to the ground.

[blackenedwings]

I think a lot of kung fu schools neglect ground fighting training... this is definitely an important thing to train for real combat. It would be utterly foolish to assume that you will never end up on the ground during a real fight. At my WC class we learn a bit about ground fighting, but thus far I have not had a lot of focus on it. I would be interested to see if when I progress farther I will be taught more. I also have an interest in crosstraining with BJJ to give me a better handle on grappling. ...so to speak.

[jimmytofu]

Originally posted by zumtream
Wing Tsun (Lung Tings system) does have some ground fighting techniques. I have been taugh some of them and did a very interesting lesson on Footwork Chi Sou. Very strange!
However i also do judo so i would use that if i ever got to the ground.

Sounds interesting. Is there any emphasis on centrelines or positioning once you take it to the ground, or is it quite different from standing?

[zumtream]

It doesn't really work on the center line system because bodys can be any position when on the ground. However it still keeps in mind about withdrawing if you encounter superiour strengh. It seems a little abstract at the moment but my Sifu said after awhile it will seem very similar to standing fighting.

[nicolo]

Wing Chun's short kicks, trapping and punches can be used on the ground but only in the right situations. But in terms of a street fight, nothing is ever textbook.

I think it's pretty evident that ppl are pulling techniques from other disciplines to make up for the lack of extensive groundwork in Wing Chun. So is it really Wing Chun after all? Or are traditionalists realizing the JKD-ish vision that Bruce Lee had so strongly advocated so long ago? What would a pure Wing Chun stylist do on the ground is the real question here.

[blackenedwings]

"JKD-ish vision that Bruce Lee had so strongly advocated so long ago?"

Wing Chun is not techniques set in stone... it is a collection of principles and training. Many WC people believe that Bruce's vision would have found him even if he had finished his WC training and never named his understanding Jeet kune do.

Pulling things from other styles is completely acceptable as a Wing Chun practitioner as long as you don't break the principles. (or if you do break them to be conscious of the possible consequences) Just because a particular strike/block/hold/throw is not found in the traditional WC forms does not mean you are not practicing WC if the motion conforms to the principles. (such as Conservation of Energy)

Any motion that matches the principles -is- Wing Chun.

[nicolo]

really? I never knew that when I practiced Wing Chun or for that matter any single style. I was led to believe that styles were set in stone. The fact that you're saying it is now constantly evolving and borrowing techniques that fall into WC principle is a new thing to me. So I guess WC is in everything and everything is in WC. In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any distinctions and everyone should be as complete as possible.

[Sub zero]

it has beenmy experince that ma like kung fu, and ju jitsu are really almost terms to term certain principles in fighting. Ofcourse each specialises in it's own areas but wiith many pronciples being the same cross over happens in so mnay tehcniques.

With MA which mostly evolved last centuary in the form whihc they are practiced today (eg karate, aikido, tkd,) this does not appl as much. becasue they have had people who say "this is karate". doesn't leave much room for expansion (altho theres alot in karate already). BUt that doesn't meanthat the same won't happen one day (it's probably been happening for a while in some schools)

[jimmytofu]

Thanks for all the advice on the potential of cross-training.

I find it surprising that if WC derived from Shoalin Kung Fu, then it must have been a conscious decision to not incorporate any groundwork (in reference to Ip Man). Maybe once mastered it is effective enough that groundwork is superfluous. I'm simply not that confident..
..I buy a car with airbags, not because I expect to crash - I drive pretty well and I'm careful, but because it's a realistic risk.

[SoKKlab]

I don't believe the story about Wing Chun deriving from 'Shaolin' Kung Fu.

There is a very strong link between Wing Chun and the Yong Chun (White Crane) of Yong Chun village in Fujian Province.

It is dubious as to whether Yong Chun derived from any Shaolin sources, even if there was a Shaolin Temple in the Hokkien speaking part of China.

Yong Chun is a village art and has been associated with that area for a long time.

Although Yong Chun is a 'bigger frame' art and contains much more Grappling, Pressure Points, some Ground Fighting etc, it's still a big Plausible that it was the origin of Wing Chun.

Yong Chun was also a major influence upon Okinawan Te.

As far as groundfighting in Wing Chun is concerned. I have it on very good authority from people who have been there, that in some of Wing Chun taught in Guanghzou Province, there is 'Emergency' Groundfighting in it.

So maybe it's more a matter of which system of Wing Chun you do, dictates how much stuff is in it (?).

[zumtream]

Originally posted by jimmytofu


I find it surprising that if WC derived from Shoalin Kung Fu, then it must have been a conscious decision to not incorporate any groundwork (in reference to Ip Man).

WC was not derived from Shoalin Kung Fu. It was created by a female nun who was not physicaly strong (like the shoalin practioners) and who wanted a system that was all about using there pwoer against them and by withdrawing from superiour strength (because there will always be someone stronger than you).

By i agree with the post above. Its really about what system you use (Wing Tsun, Wing Chun, Wing Chung, Ving Tsun) and who your teacher is and what he has experienced. All different sifus have different ways around the problem and different things they teach.