To Shin Do

Could anyone possibly give me some opinions on To Shin Do? Any pluses or minuses or any other information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks..

 

The main To Shin Do dojo is about 2 hours from where I live. Stephen K. Hayes is the head sensei, being trained by Hatsumi. He's the bearded one you see with Hatsumi in all those pictures. He's written several books on the art of Ninpo, and he seems to be extremely knowledgeable on this subject. I suggest you look into it if you happen to be nearby.

 

The one minus about Toshindo (and it is a big one in my most humble opinion) is that Stephen K. Hayes no longer trains with Hatsumi-sensei (or so everyone has told me despite some small rumors). If this is true, Hayes has cut himself off from the source. What does this mean? Just that Hayes does not teach Ninjutsu anymore. Not exactly sure if he still claims to or not. This is not to say his system is ineffective though. Unfortunately I have heard he teaches a watered down version of Bujinkan Ninjutsu and students of his don't benefit terribly much, though his senior students, I have heard, are quite impressive. Perhaps when his organization grew beyond a certain point he was unable to provide quality training and had to change his teaching methods. I have no idea. It is worth a look, however, but maybe also visit a Bujinkan dojo and compare the training. There may be a big difference as to which would be more worth while. If you do make the comparison, please report back. I would love to hear how the Toshindo training is.

 

Well the second school, I believe, is down here in Tampa, FL and the "Dean" is Mark Russo. I think I might give it a try because they give free 30 day trial. It won't be for a couple months though. I'm still considering kickboxing or MT Kickboxing, but since the location of the Quest school is hard to beat it may be To Shin Do instead or maybe both

These are the instructors

http://www.tampa-quest-ctr.com/teachers.htm

 

I'm not sure about the training deal, and To Shin Do is not a branch directly from Hatsumi's Bujinkan, but he is still a certified instructor, and he does teach ninpo there. The quest centers are also included on www.winjutsu.com, so I am assuming that Hatsumi recongnizes him and his schools.

Btw- Hayes has written several books that are seen everywhere that Hatsumi's books are sold. From these books, I repeatively see Hayes being recognized as 'The western authority on ninjutsu'. These are a few things I've found out about this guy- he seems to be authentic and very true to his art.

 

The guy who runs Tampa Quest Center has a story about going to japan and taken the test for 5th "degree" blackbelt with Hatsumi so he must be recognized...

 

Hayes' is supposedly the "Western authority" on Ninjutsu because he was one of the first Westerners to be allowed to train in the art. It is unknown, however, whether or not hayes travels back to Japan to train with Hatsumi-sensei ever since forming Toshindo.

 

Not sure...I should really try getting to Dayton and check it out

 

You can also email directly from the Quest Center web site and ask them all these questions. Thats way the story comes from the horses mouth you might say

 

When you email a school and ask em if they're good? might be a little biased.

 

No, I did not mean that. I meant History of the school etc.

 

Re: Toshindo, Stephen K. Hayes, Mark S. Russo

I have trained both with Stephen K. Hayes at the Dayton Quest Center and with Mark Russo at the Tampa Quest Center. Mr. Russo was my original ninjutsu teacher from 1986 to 1991. He is an incredible martial artist! He is truly a martial artist of the highest caliber, and Mr. Russo can "deliver!"

Stephen K. Hayes was my teacher from 1996 to around 2000. He is quite literally "the Father of American Ninjutsu." He is an amazing man, and a truly gifted martial artist of which (in my humble opinion) very few ninjutsu practioners in America are of the same experience and ability level. Both of these men were my first role-models in the martial arts, and in life, and I feel that I was very, very fortunate.

Toshindo is the creation of Stephen K. Hayes, and he will say directly that it is not ninjutsu. It is his own martial art, derived from ninjutsu principles. He has stated in various martial arts magazines that he does still teach ninjutsu, but only to a few select individuals. If I can recall correctly, he stated that "very few individuals today could live the way true ninjutsu demands..." or something to that effect.

Mr. Russo did pass the fifth dan test in Japan, and it was given to him by Hatsumi Sensei. Mr. Russo has however also practiced ninjutsu with Stephen for many years, before Stephen moved on to create Toshindo.

It is my position that if your desire is to learn ninjutsu, then do so at a reputable Bujinkan Dojo. If you desire to learn Toshindo, do so at a Quest Center.

I hope this helps!
-Jim McFarland, Nidan, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

 

Good post, Jim. I agree with you. I never trained with Russo, but did train with Steve Hayes. He is an amazing martial artist. I'm not as familiar with To Shin Do, but do know that he was the western world's foremost authority on Ninpo for 20 years. He's now in his 50's and is ready to be on his own. In my opinion, it matters little that he does not train with Hatsumi anymore. Hayes is still probably far superior than almost all Bujinkan blackbelts anywhere in the world.

 

I train in To-shin Do at the Illinois Quest Center
(in naperville Illinois)
and I highly reccomend it.
The senior instructor there is Michael Eichenburg, if anyone lives in that area check it out!
It's great training with great people!

 

I went to watch 3 classes last week at To Shin Do. I watched a Level 4 (blackbelts) class, some intermediate class, and a beginner class. It appeared that the instructors were very good, and the classes were fast paced and interesting. I'm pretty sure I'm going to try it out.

 

Hayes still trains with Hatsumi, he just doesn't test for higher dan as 11+ dan are actually the same as 10 according to Soke

 

Badbeat,

I currently attend classes at the Tampa Quest To Shindo Center. I've been going for almost 2 months now and I have to say I'm enjoying it.

I don't know how it compares to a Bujinkan dojo as I've never attended classes with one.

Show up take the 30 day trial period and see what you think.

I'm usually there Tues and Thurs mornings.


V

 

Thought this might be of interest to a few of you. Sometime after the last Tai Kai, Hatsumi-sensei gave a list of instructors that he did not wish for anyone to train with. He said it is fine to remain friends with these individuals, but that training with them was forbidden. Going against this wish is said to be grounds for barring practitioners from training at Hombu Dojo/in the Bujinkan. I believe the reason given for this list is that the individuals have not trained much with Soke in the past decade, which Hatsumi-sensei has proclaimed to be a critical time for training in this art. Apparently these individuals missed a lot of what Soke has been passing on, so much so that their art is very distinguishable from that of the Bujinkan. Take it for what you will. I certainly have no desire to be banned from training in Japan or in the Bujinkan. Anyway, here's the list:

Stephen Hayes
Shoto Tanemura
Fumio Manaka
Muramatsu-sensei
Ishizuki-sensei

 

I am soooooo banned

:yeleyes:


Thinking of seeking out the rest of the list so I can be really banned and maybe get on the list. I would love to be banned by Hatsumi Sensei!

Stephen Hayes - Soke of To Shin Do
Shoto Tanemura - Soke of Genbukan (and the reason I am banned and very happy about it!)
Fumio Manaka - Soke of the Jinenkan


Muramatsu-sensei - Who is this?
Ishizuki-sensei - Who is this?

 

No he does not, he has not been to see Hatsumi in over 5 years and that is why there is a big argument going on over this, please get the facts right Jibran, this is why people scowled at you on Kutaki!!