Anyone know if this person (Anthony Cummins, UK) has ever trained a single second in any of the -Kans? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czU78pFudYc&feature=related"]YouTube- Shinobi Soldiers: Episode 3 - Is Ninjutsu a Martial Art?[/ame] I'm just interested to know if he (or his outfit) are qualified to make such statements. Please opine.
I'm not going to get into what his teachers said and his teachers qualifications. its been dealt with else where. But three things struck me when I listened to this. 1/ He has a very limited view of what martial arts are. he's seems to be implying that in his opinion "Martial Arts" are just unarmed or armed combat with a sword i.e. man to man. Personaly i would say that "Martial" meaning "War" means "the art of war" and that therefore means any methods by which one wages war including spying, concelament, camouflage etc. I would even go so far as to say that today a martial art is also firing an artillery weapon, flying an A10 tank buster, and using satelite images to find an enemy in the landscape. 2/ He seems to thinking of Jujutsu as a martial art of the samurai distinct from anything the Ninja would do. However there is DVD by Shoto Tanemura (the interview tape) where Mr Tanemura explains how the name for martial arts changed over time. Havent watched it for a long time but IIRC he points out that the oldest martial arts were called Koshi and Koppo, then became Daken and Jutai and later from Jutaijutsu we get Jujutsu and finally Judo. OK I know thats not the whole story and serge Mol does a great job of explaining it better but just what i remember from the DVD of Mr Tanemura. This suggest of course that the Ninja probably studied a much earlier style of combat and Jujutsu was a later development. A bit like the branches of an evolutionary tree. In other word Jujutsu is a name used in a particular time period. Serge Mol suggests that the term "jujutsu" was not used until the first half of the 17th century. page 8 Classical Fighting Arts of Japan This being true then his statement about ninjas using Jujutsu is a bit absurd as its after the Sengoku Jidai period, which means that samurai of course didnt have martial arts either in the Sengoku Jidai period as Jujutsu (Using the term he used for what the samurai studied) didnt start until after 1650s or there about. However if as he claimed that the ninja may have studied an earlier version of Jujutsu then of course we have to ask ourselves what this would be. Koshi Jutsu, Koppo Jutsu, Dakentaijutsu. perhaps? He seems to contradict himself a bit there. 3/ Once again he falls into the trap of seperating Ninja from Samurai. I'm not going to get into this as its been discussed at length else where. Can we get him on this forum? Garth
Gary, I could be wrong but I think he is already on MAP. I might have the wrong guy but try giving shirotora a PM.
Agree with Garth. Why does everyone have Classical fighting Arts of Japan except me I find most people don't know what they are talking about when it comes to Samurai, Ninja and martial arts. This seems to be the case here.
Just off the top of my head! Terminology wise you've got kogusoku, koshi no mawari, torite, kumiuchi, yawara etc. It's all going to differ between ryu and period.
Its seems like it the old assumption is older is better still lingers.. If that were true the US Army would go get some ww1 era tanks to replace the MI Abrams for tooling around Iraq:bang:
There are two types of idiots. One says "this is old, and therefore good". The other says "this is new, and therefore better".
Connovar posted Actually your not far wrong. The British Churchill tank was developed for the trenches of the first world war, but in the latter part of WW2 the churchill really came into its own. Not only was it used as a carrier of multiple weapons systems and equipment i.e. bridgelayers but its was damned near unstoppable. In fact it could go almost anywhere (except shingle i.e Dieppe) and stood up to most german tanks except tigers and panthers. The Sherman which was developed latter (1942) didnt Hense the name Ronson or Tommy Cooker. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GkQhIdTAq0&feature=related"]YouTube- Churchill Tank 4/5[/ame] In fact history is full of periods when previous weapons had to be reintroduced because the modern ones didnt work too well when it came to combat or when phased out weapons were reintroduced i.e the gattling gun on the A10. I wish i could find that clip of the American civil war cannon Versus a modern artillery piece. Garth
Serge Mols book may poke some holes in this theory, if in fact that is what was stated. There were koppojustu schools that came about after the terms jujutsu/yawara etc had been in use. There were also a few older koryu schools that used the term "ju-do" to describe their art. for what its worth, Hatsumi mentions in the takamatsu DVD this his line of SFR was called dekentaijutsu, or taijutsu, depending on the era.
And the term Jujutsu was used a lot earlier as well, or at least mentioned, but I think its when they became trendy or the norm if you get what i mean. Garth
I always thought Ninjutsu wasn't a martial art, it was information gathering, escape and concealment, etc. Is this guy's opinion new and exciting information or something?
Its an example of someone having access to good information, but not having the background to understand it in context. When he says that "ninjutsu" is not a fighting art, he is kind of correct. You could have "ninpo taijutsu", "ninpo kenjutsu", etc. Ninjutsu is the art of gathering information. The fighting style of someone with that job would be different from someone whose job was to guard a gate or lead a calvary charge. The references for fighting skills would probably not have terms like "ninjutsu" on them, but another name. There is many names for unarmed arts as Dean and others have pointed out. So you might have something people called "Tonsogata" or something else that would not show up when you looked for it under the term ninjutsu. We know that the ninja of Iga during the shogunate would get together and train in fighting techniques and other arts. We know that documents referred to a ninja swords and other unique ninja weapons. There just is no documentation for any of the weapons used by the ninja under the term ninjutsu, so it is not surprising that most combat techniques were not written down. You have to understand how written documents like that were used. Ask people that do koryu and they will tell you that the documents they have listing their techniques are not "how to" manuals, but rather a form of proof and a way of reminding students to show their ability to teach. They were mainly needed if the school set up shop and needed to prove their credentials. Prior to a school like the Kashima Shinto ryu becoming a ryuha because of Tsukahara Bokuden, and was merely taught from father to son there was no need for them. The ninja families tended to be closer to that model than the classic ryuha. Documents like the Bansenshukai, Shoninki, etc tend to either introduce the art or fill as technical reference for things like making gunpowder. You will find strategies to ponder on how to sneak into something, but no instruction on how to stealth walk. Those types of thing were taught in person. Fighting arts that were taught face to face just do not seem to exist. That is not to say that they did not exist in the same families that passed down ninjutsu skills. And it is not to say that people can take a jujutsu school and claim that it is the same fighting style that the ninja used. I hope that makes it a little clearer.
To bad we couldnt duel with myself in Abrams and you in Churchill! We would have to use some sort of simunition though as you arent a bad sort.
I've always thought that if you were studying an art like Ninjutsu in the feudal period the last thing you would want to do is call what you do Ninjutsu. Kind of tips the gaff a bit. Incidently wasnt Sandayu Momochi an expert in the art of Gyokko Ryu and others. Hasnt Dr Hatsumi refered to Gyokko Ryu as Ninjutsu? Garth
When they invent the holodeck, we can sort out all the arguments on here with simulated fights to the death. See you in 30 years for some two men enter, one man leaves
Churchill Crocodile would seriously give most modern armor and infantry a run for their money. Molotov Cocktails are still one of the most effective ways to take out heavy armor.
I think tanks and equipment are not a good example. Clearly we'd rather have modern rifles than civil war era rifles. Maybe a better examples is something like the works of Sun Tzu and others. The Military Academies still examine the battles that the Romans and Greeks fought and modern military strategists still quote Sun Tzu. This, to me, seems to dove-tail nicely with what I see of Soke's teaching style and content.
