Taijutsu as Self-defense

[antihero.zero]

The other day I found an interesting subject on another forum, asking people to describe any fights they had been in while using taijutsu. Unfortunately, the subject seems dead there, so I'm hoping some of you might come forward with your own stories to share. I'll start first (please note that I altered some of the ages from the original forum I posted this on, because after some consideration I realized I had made a few errors):

The first time I used Bujinkan Budo to defend myself was when I was fourteen. An adult in a blind rage tried to shove me backwards, and I used his forward momentum and ganseki nage to throw him past me. He then tried to punch me from a kneeling posture, and I placed my foot on his bicep (like a stomp kick without the force) as he cocked his arm back. He ended up injuring himself when he tried to punch me from that position, and he didn’t have the will to fight further.

The next time I used taijutsu for self-defense was when I was fifteen. A classmate tried to stab me in the face with my own mechanical pencil, and as he brought the pencil to my eye I put him in omote gyaku and took the pencil away from him.

The other times I used my training were for a security job. Generally I approached my opponent from behind, grabbed one of their arms, and put them in a variety of holds. The holds I used were most commonly one of the gyakus. On one occasion I also used musha dori when someone approached me from behind and grabbed my shoulder.

I'm going to also describe another fight I was in when I was fifteen, but this does not include the use of taijutsu. My closest friend and I had met for the 1st time and we hated each other with a passion. After class we decided to fight to settle our dispute, and before I could react he kicked me in the head (he was an Olympic class Taekwondo student). Realizing I was in trouble, I grabbed the front of his shirt and pulled him back hard to position us in a cluttered school desk aisle (this was so he wouldn't have the room to kick me again). I then put him in a standing Judo chokehold. Strangly enough, this fight is what solidified our current friendship.

In closing, I'd like to ask if anyone has ever managed to use onikudaki effectively outside the dojo? This is the kihon happo technique I have always struggled with the most, and the one I feel least confident using on the street. It seems too vulnerable for me to endorse (exposing your ribs to your opponent's offhand).

[Obakemono]

In high school some guy gave me the finger so i did a double lapel grab to transition into a throw - unfortunately the throw never happened because he outweighed me by 40kg.

I held him in the double grab and we spilled into a garden grappling - i looked down and his nuts were wide open but i didn't knee him because a little voice in my head said "that's a dishonorable technique". We basically just held on to each other until a teacher broke up the fight.

After that i decided Judo was completely useless unless it was in a fair and controlled setting so i looked for a martial art that I could use effectively to negate physical strength and mass advantages.

I've been training in ninjutsu for half a decade and i haven't been in a fight since i started -

Just recently however i realized that fighting is useless and that all you really need is friends.

Now my training is going in a different direction and i doubt i will ever need to fight - because i have friends who are bigger and stronger than me(albeit less skilled technically) who can fight for me.

leadership & strategy > strength & mass

[popasmuerf]

Originally Posted by Obakemono

In high school some guy gave me the finger so i did a double lapel grab to transition into a throw - unfortunately the throw never happened because I did'nt know what I was doing...I like to tell myself that I didn't pull off the throw due to him out weighing me by 40kg.

I held him in the double grab and we spilled into a garden flailing about - i looked down and his nuts were wide open but i didn't knee him because a little voice in my head said "that's a dishonorable technique". We basically just held on to each other until a teacher broke up the fight because I didn't really know anything about fighting on the ground, otherwise I would transitioned into at least a pin within 10 seconds after we hit the ground.

After that i erroneously equated my total lack of skill w/r to throwing/grappling with Judo being completely useless it was in a fair and controlled setting so i looked for a martial art that supported my delusional downplaying of my total lack of grappling skill ; instead of training in a MA that has a verifiable record of negating physical strength and mass advantages, I chose the worst possible MA you could think of to handle such situations

Fixed.

[Hayseed]

[noname]

[instead of training in a MA that has a verifiable record of negating physical strength and mass advantages]


then why are there weight classes?

[Kagete]

YouTube - Amanda Barrie hitting Gordon Ramsay in Hells Kitchen UK!

YouTube - Amanda Barrie hitting Gordon Ramsay in Hells Kitchen UK!

[Fusen]

Originally Posted by noname

[instead of training in a MA that has a verifiable record of negating physical strength and mass advantages]


then why are there weight classes?

Mass is an advantage, just like the advantage of skill, when skill is accuractly measured by grade, and the comps are divided by grade (i.e. equal skill) then the advantage of mass will obviously have an effect.

To counter that, A lot of grapling comps now also have open weight catagories.

example:

YouTube - Mike DeBiase (Kardian MMA) Grappling a 300 Pound Opponent

YouTube - Mike DeBiase (Kardian MMA) Grappling a 300 Pound Opponent

[koyo]

Originally Posted by noname

[instead of training in a MA that has a verifiable record of negating physical strength and mass advantages]


then why are there weight classes?

because even competition is ment to be a demonstration of skill. Some with a weight advantage tend to fight defensively simply clamping on and trying wear out the other who is not allowed to use the more effective (self defence) techniques of judo in competition.

[popasmuerf]

Originally Posted by noname

[instead of training in a MA that has a verifiable record of negating physical strength and mass advantages]


then why are there weight classes?

Weight classes where devised to prevent individuals of comparable skill set to have the unfair advantage of weight.

During the formative years of Judo, it was nothing out of the ordinary to see the Japanese schooling the larger Americans and Europeans. As the the Americans and Europeans became better players their size became an advantage....do you see where I am going with this? Also take note the it was inferred that he knew something about throwing/Judo or at least thought he did.

If you are familiar with any type of grappling tournaments, there are open divisions and the option to fight up weight classes. Often when a larger opponent goes head up with a smaller opponent in an open division the smaller individual wins the match.

This regularly happens at any Judo/BJJ/Sambo/Shuai Jiao/wrestling gym. There are no weight divisions during randori(randori occurs during every practice), yet the larger newbs are almost always having their backsides handed to them...

The easiest way to experience the strength/size vs. technique and skill is to visit you local sport grappling gym/dojo and find a reasonably small brown-black belt(make sure it is a competitor). Tell him that you are not convinced that a smaller opponent of greater apparent skill can convincingly and regularly control/defeat a larger person of greater strength but of less skill. I am sure they will be more than happy to show you. Make sure you get video of your experiment so that you may submit your findings to rigorous peer review

[Obakemono]

I will clarify the environment.

It was a 1m corridor with people stand either side of him and me. The actual throwing surface was less than half a square meter. Also i had to consider the throwing area of morote seoi nage and whether my opponent could have a) hit his head on the concrete wall behind me or b) hit a friend beside me.

In reality everything changes. Judo is simple in the dojo because you have space and don't need to worry about variables.

Skill means nothing when you try to apply a technique which relies on a Judo gi on an opponent wearing a loose t-shirt (morote seoi nage). Skill in an open dojo means nothing when you are trying to throw an opponent in an area which isn't optimal or detrimental to a throw.

Judo is a great sport and good for fitness but its scope is too narrow and it is only truly effective in optimal situations (which in reality is never the case).


As a final point weight is everything in judo, whether you are using your own or using your opponents weight against them. If your opponent has good balance and a large mass it is much more difficult to take their balance.

[Hayseed]

Originally Posted by Obakemono

I will clarify the environment.

It was a 1m corridor with people stand either side of him and me. The actual throwing surface was less than half a square meter. Also i had to consider the throwing area of morote seoi nage and whether my opponent could have a) hit his head on the concrete wall behind me or b) hit a friend beside me.

In reality everything changes. Judo is simple in the dojo because you have space and don't need to worry about variables.

Skill means nothing when you try to apply a technique which relies on a Judo gi on an opponent wearing a loose t-shirt (morote seoi nage). Skill in an open dojo means nothing when you are trying to throw an opponent in an area which isn't optimal or detrimental to a throw.

Judo is a great sport and good for fitness but its scope is too narrow and it is only truly effective in optimal situations (which in reality is never the case).


As a final point weight is everything in judo, whether you are using your own or using your opponents weight against them. If your opponent has good balance and a large mass it is much more difficult to take their balance.

You should post this in the Judo forum. I'd be interested to see how it is received.

[Bronze Statue]

So Obak didn't find his command of one art at one time to be of use, and so he switched to another.

I'd be very shocked if such a phenomenon was somehow especially out of the ordinary. I'm sure a bunch of people here have switched arts.

[Hayseed]

Originally Posted by Bronze Statue

So Obak didn't find his command of one art at one time to be of use, and so he switched to another.

I'd be very shocked if such a phenomenon was somehow especially out of the ordinary. I'm sure a bunch of people here have switched arts.

People grow and change, obviously their interests will evolve as well, it's only natural. But not being able to throw someone isn't Judo's fault, and I doubt you'll find many who changed arts that would say that the art was to blame for their shortcomings..... Unless it's BJK that is.

[Bronze Statue]

Originally Posted by Hayseed

People grow and change, obviously their interests will evolve as well, it's only natural. But not being able to throw someone isn't Judo's fault...

No doubt. But the situation, and the will to change styles or at least training groups, wouldn't have been any different had it been a failed shuai jiao throw or failed taijutsu throw of similar nature, would it?

[Hayseed]

Originally Posted by Bronze Statue

No doubt. But the situation, and the will to change styles or at least training groups, wouldn't have been any different had it been a failed shuai jiao throw or failed taijutsu throw of similar nature, would it?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to illustrate, so I'll clarify...

Originally Posted by Obakemono

After that i decided Judo was completely useless unless it was in a fair and controlled setting so i looked for a martial art that I could use effectively to negate physical strength and mass advantages.

I'm sure that everyone has had the experience of saying something based on their level of experience that later on, they wished they could take back, it's bound to happen. But to act as if it's rude to call them on it is a bit much to me. Sure he may have been a bit heavy handed about it, but I think his(popasmuerf) assessment is pretty accurate.

@Koyo, Fusen, Popa Noname was being a smart ass.

Back to the thread topic....

Thankfully I have not had to employ Taijutsu in a life threatening encounter.

The original post kind of set the tone, but when I see a thread where people are invited to share stories about using their training in real life, I really don't expect to see references to high school scuffles. Unless of course your high school was in S. Chicago or similar.